TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR ADDS MYSTERY TERMINALS!!

[darrell1gregg]

I have noticed this problem and am at my wits end to identify what cuases it.

The problem:

I have created a terminal network in a schematic.

I have then used the TSE (terminal strip editor) to insert the panel footprints.

I then go to my terminal table drawing and begin to insert the table there and notice there are "duplicate" "mystery" terminals added to my terminal strip.

These terminals do not exist in the panel, or the schematic.

Once the TSE does this there is nothing that can be done to fix it except delete the additional terminals and rebuild the terminal strip. Which is bad enough, but if there are any jumpers those get duplicated in a strange way as well and those are completely deleted and have to be rejumpered.

I have tried:

simply closing the project and rerunning TSE, issue is still present.

I have updated the project database then reran TSE, issue is still present.

I have deleted the scratch database and then updated project database then reran the TSE, issue is still present.

I am attaching images and drawings.

[darrell1gregg]

I can only add 3 attachments. Here are the rest...

The last two are the panel and schematic for this terminal strip.

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

To explain what is wrong I need to give some explanation on how terminals are related in AutoCAD Electrical. For non-terminals the TAG value relates components. But, for terminals that isn't going to work because the TAGSTRIP value is the same for all terminals in the strip. Also, terminals are further complicated for multi-level where you can have multiple schematic terminals and one panel terminal all representing the same actual terminal.

So to create those relationships AutoCAD Electrical uses a value either on an attribute or as xdata, called LINKTERM. This value is assigned when you insert a terminal using the AutoCAD Electrical tools. When you associate terminals to create a multi-level terminal they all get the same LINKTERM value. When Terminal Strip Editor inserts a panel terminal it receives the same LINKTERM value as the schematic terminal(s) it represents. If the LINKTERM values are not the same, Terminal Strip Editor does not see them as representing the same physical terminal even if they have the same Tagstrip, Inst, Loc, and Terminal nUmber. 

In looking at your drawings it appears that the LINKTERM values for the panel terminals do not match the LINKTERM values for their schematic counterparts. To see the values you can double-click on a schematic terminal to bring up the attribute editor because they have LINKTERM attributes. For the panel terminals which do not have LINKTERM attributes, the value is saved as xdata. To see xdata you can use the Xdata Editor provided, type AEXDATA at the command prompt.

So, you are getting duplicate terminals in Terminal Strip Editor because it sees the schematic terminal as one and the panel terminal as a separate one.

Without knowing exactly the commands used and workflow for how the terminals got there I can't say how the LINKTERM values got this way. But, until the LINKTERM values are correct you will continue to have problems. Probably the quickest way to fix this is to delete the panel terminals, force a database rebuild (AEREBUILDDB with the check box for updating wire information), run TSE and insert the graphical terminal strip.

When dealing with terminals, always use AutoCAD Electrical commands to edit, move, copy, etc. Don't use the standard AutoCAD commands. If you find this happens again see if you can recall what steps you did and I can try to reproduce at my end to make sure it isn't AutoCAD Electrical messing up the LINKTERM values.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation.

Regards,

Pat Murnen

[Icemanau]

One thing to keep in mind is the number of wires that are going to each terminal.

There is a small databse that informs ACADE of how many wires can go to each connection point on a terminal. This databse also contains information on how many levels each terminal has.

If the number of wires going to the terminal is larger than what is set, the TSE will add extra terminals and jumper them to make up the required connections.

The problem arises when the automatic wire sequence has almost every wire set as 'direct to terminal'. You end up with a terminal that has two wire per connection with way more wires connecting to it than the terminal allows.

To alleviate this problem, either use the 'angled T' connections to define your connection sequence or set your wire sequence manually. Then a do a project database rebuild before you run the TSE.

Regards Brad

[darrell1gregg]

Ok, in this particular case I had done a "copy to" on my panel that had a main panel, and a side panel. the side panel needed to be placed in it's own drawing to accomodate bubbling the parts.

But...

I am now on another project in which I had built a terminal strip in my panel, and it was fine, I then also built the terminal table, which also was fine.

I checked my drawings into the vault last night.

Now when I check them out this morning, I find ACE has added another terminal to my layout.

this terminal strip has been moved around as the panel is changing, I do not use the "rebuild" to move the panel components around in the same drawing.

In order to move a panel terminal strip 1 inch to the left I have to rebuild it? Is that what you are advising?

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

A move would be fine. If you want to move them to another drawing I would recommend rebuilding. Copying terminals is where some issues can happen.

Also, if you add a drawing (or group of drawings) and get an alert about the LINKTERM you should say Yes to allow it to update. The only time to say No is if you removed some drawings from a project and are adding them back in. If you are reusing drawings that have terminal relationships, add the drawings as a group, let it update the LINKTERM. The relationships within the group you added are maintained.

As far as the terminal that got added, did you get any alerts about it being added due to wiring constraints? This is what Brad was mentioning in his post in this thread. If you didn't get an alert, if you post the drawings I can look at them and at least confirm whether it is a LINKTERM issue or not.

Regards,

Pat

[darrell.l.gregg]

We are noticing now that for some reason bubbling a terminal cuases that terminal to be duplicated in the terminal strip editor. somehow the linkterm data is being corrupted during bubbling.

[eric.hJGZCJ]

Icemanau,

I have been trying to figure out the best way to get AutoCADE to not add the extra terminals.  In your post you mention 'angled T' connections.  Can you explain what that refers to or point me to some reference documentation.

Thanks!

[jseefdrumr]

The best way to keep TSE from adding extra terminals, is to make sure you don't land more wires on a terminal than the software thinks it can handle. You can change how many wires a terminal can handle in the terminal definitions box. 

As for the angled tee, this has to do with wire sequencing and as far as I know, will still be affected if there are too many wires landing on one terminal. If you want to use those, read about wire sequencing in HELP. Normally these aren't used in American/NFPA drawings, they're a European standard. The angled tees are in the same place as the wire dots in the menu bars, you just have to use the pull-down arrow to know they're there.

Seriously, the best way to avoid extra terminals in your strips is to pay close attention to wire connections on terminals.

[eric.hJGZCJ]

Updating terminal definitions to allow extra wire connections seems to have fixed my particular issue.  To change the definition, in the terminal strip editor, just need to right click on the terminal, go to block properties, and edit.  This menu will allow you to change the number of wire connections allowed and add or remove rows for that terminal int he terminal strip editor.  Thanks for the help!

[dougmcalexander]

You can set the Catalog Database up to always allow a specific amount of wires per terminal connection for each specific terminal part number. Click Catalog Lookup while editing a terminal symbol. Click to Edit the record. Drag the slider to the right until you see the Wires Per Connection field. The default number is 2, meaning 2 wires per screw or clamp.  This translates to 4 wires total for a single-tier feed-through terminal. If the software detects a 5th wire, Terminal Strip Editor will add a spare terminal block to the strip.  Increase the wires per connection number enough to accommodate the number of wires you expect to connect to a single terminal symbol.  

But be cautious of the design rules in your country. More than two wires per connection might not be allowed in your country.  And you must use a double-barrel ferrule if you insert two wires into the same screw or clamp.

I teach a method I call “design reality”.  For example, to represent a power bus, I replace node dots on my ladder rail with actual terminal symbols, as applicable. That way the Terminal Strip Editor cannot misinterpret my intentions. A wire may connect vertically to the top of the terminal, another wire, horizontally, to the right, and another, vertically, to the bottom.  I have not reached the limit of 4.  

There are 4 wire connection points per schematic terminal symbol. But be careful not to confuse that with the wires-per-connection limit set in the database. The database setting of 2 allows for a total of 4 wires per schematic terminal symbol.  Don’t interpret that as meaning you can connect 2 wires to the top, 2 to the bottom , 2 to the left, and 2 to the right.  The 4 wire connection points on the terminal symbol are for our convenience.  We must not connect more than 4 wires to a single schematic terminal symbol, in any fashion.  If we connect 2 to the top and 2 to the bottom, we have connected the maximum number of wires to that specific terminal symbol.  

Hint: Here is how I create a power bus.  From the first terminal in the strip to the second, I usually insert a conductor on a layer named JumperBar.  It represents the jumper between sequential terminals that create the bus. I repeat for the connection between terminals 2 and 3, 3 to 4, etc.