Source Destination Reference explanation

[frugal]

Hello,

I am having trouble understanding and editing source and destination arrow references.

In the attached file, I removed all the Signal Arrow Cross - reference texts using the

Project>Utilities tool because they were incorrect and I couldn't fix them.

Now, if I select for example, the source arrow at wire #046 (right-click>Edit Component) in the top right of the drawing and set the reference manually to an arbitrary value, say 300, the XREF value in the attributes is sucessfully updated. If I then try to update the coresponding Destination #046 in the lower left part of the drawing using Schematic>Edit Wires>Update Signal References, both Source and Destination XREFs are erased. I can manually set the Destinal XREF to the same, but surely this is not the correct way to do this?

Perhaps someone could explain the concept of the Reference. What is it's intended use? What differentiates it from the wire number for example?

When is it supposed to be created?

Many thanks,

Fru

[Icemanau]

The reference you are talking about is automatically filled in when you associate two or more signal arrows (1 Source / 1 or more destinations). It utilises the co-ordinate system you have set in your dwg and is part of the component XREF system.

The purpose of the signal arrow is to indicate where a wire moves from one location to another without showing the entire length or even between dwgs. A signal network can only have one source but multiple destinations can connect to the same source. Note that when I talk about a signal network, I am only talking about wires connect together. You can have many signal networks in a dwg or project.

As a quick tutorial, start a blank dwg and make sure the co-ordinate system you use is set up properly.

Draw two seperate wires and number  one of the wires.

Start the Signal Arrow command and select on end of the numbered wire.

Type a code and description into the appropriate fields and click OK.

You should now get a dialog asking if you want to insert a matching destination arrow.

Click OK and select one end of the wire with no number.

ACADE will now add the Destination arrow and fill in the description, add the number from the first wire to the second wire and show a reference

(co-ordinate or XREF) to the source arrow. The first arrow will also now show a reference (co-ordinate or XREF) to the destination arrow as well.

You should also know that you can just insert source arrows or just destination arrows and they will work across different dwg files as long as those files are all in the same project. There is also a command to update the signal arrows.

Regards Brad

[frugal]

Hi Icemanau,

Many thanks for the reply.

I understand the purpose of the source and destination arrows, how to insert and edit them and that sources are singular and destinations possibly multiple. My problem is only with the Reference.

Here is what happens when I insert a source and destination in a new drawing (the same behaviour as I get with the file that I posted):

 

I get a "to ?" and "from ?" as the Reference. I can edit the Atributes of either arrow, but I can't make those edits 'stick'. As soon as I try to update the value of the destination arrow with its source, the Reference value is reset to "?".

I am unfamiliar with the "coordinate system" you mentioned. None of the tutorials and help files that I have looked at for Source and Destination mention this. In your explanation, you make a distinction between "co-ordinate and XREF", do you mean to imply that the Reference can be either a location on the sheet or an arbitrary number?

Kind regards,

Fru

[drathak · Accepted solution]

The reference information is based on the format set up in the "Drawing Format" tab in the project properties or drawing properties.  (Set at the project level and all new drawings in the project will follow.)  I suspect you don't have any reference format set up in those drawings which is why you get question marks for the reference info.  It would be that way for any symbol, I suspect.

Once you have that properly set up your signal references should work.  It is reccomended that once you figure out your referencing system that you make it a part of your template project.  As an example. I have attached a drawing from one of my projects that has in-page and off sheet signal references.  The index around the left side and top are the reference index that determines the reference information on the signals.  I have much of the signal information hidden since we use the stand-alone cross reference when there are more than one wire close together.  But it is all there.

Hope this helps.

[frugal]

Hi Joe,

Thank you, that is a clear explanation the functionality of the Reference value (though I still fail to see why it would be user editable at all).

Thank you especially for the sample drawing, that 'drove it home'.

Kind regards,

Fru

[drathak]

---

@frugal wrote:

Hi Joe,

Thank you, that is a clear explanation the functionality of the Reference value (though I still fail to see why it would be user editable at all).

Thank you especially for the sample drawing, that 'drove it home'.

Kind regards,

Fru

---

You are most welcome.You are most welcome.

Do you mean the index setup or the cross reference information?  I can't realy see why you would need to edit the reference itself manually, no.  But the index can be set up to match a company's standards. 

Or, in an example I saw at AU a couple of weeks ago, you can set up the index to make life a lot easier for you.  By setting up the index properly, the instructor in this class (Randy Brunette) was able to place rack equipment on a rack drawing and the TAG ID would come in something like RACK01.SLOT05.ESW1 for an ethernet switch.  The columns were set up to be RACK01, RACK02, etc. and the rows were spaced 1RU (1.75") and set up the SLOT01, SLOT01, etc numbering.

Pretty slick.

[frugal]

Hi Joe,

What you are describing is elegant indeed, but well beyond what I was hoping to accomplish.

Here is the source of my confusion about the XREF functionality.

There are in fact two ways to edit the Reference value:

1) The Edit Component dialog

2) The Edit Attributes Dialog

The result is what I wanted, but the edits don't stick, nor can they be updated with Update Signal Codes.

I guess I will just make do with Wirenumber and Description which is a pity because of the lack of multiple destination listings in the Source Arrow.

Best,

Fru

[rhesusminus]

I have a question.

Where is "Mars"? Is it somewhere onthe same sheet? Is it somewhere on another sheet? Is it at a specific location at another sheet?

When you say you want multiple destinations, do you want:

----- To Mars and Jupiter

From Mars ---------

From Jupiter --------  

[frugal]

Hi rhesusminus,

In the specific instance I was posting about, Mars is on the same sheet as the destination, but there is no particular reason to make that distinction.

What I was thinking about single sources multiple destinations, was:

-----> to Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto

>----- from Mars

>----- from Mars

>----- from Mars

This would allow you to make a distinction between Sources that are close together on the same sheet.

Kind regards,

Fru

[rhesusminus]

If you don't use the Drawing field in the drawing properties for anything else...

And the entire drawing sheet is a "planet" (Pluto isn't a planet any longer. It's now named 134340 😉 ), you can get it to automatically sync/update like in the attached PDF.

I this what you want?

[frugal]

That is a good idea, but it presumes that there is only one Source on the sheet! I was looking for a way to differentiate multiple distinct sources that are in close proximity to one another. As I mentioned before, I simply assumed that the Reference would function the way I wanted it to because it was editable.

Now that I understand that this is not the intended implentation, I can make do with Wire number and Description.

Best,

Fru

[drathak]

Argh.  I had a nice long reply typed out and it got eaten.

Have a look at the attached image and tell me if that is for like you are referring to.  I'll retype my explanation tomorrow.

=============

And now that I've read the last two posts, maybe I still don't understand the problem.

[rhesusminus]

I'm not sure I get it...

If you have multiple source signals on the same sheet, they should have different names, right? Or should they all be called "Mars"?

If they should have different names,  why not use the signal code to differentiate them?

If they have the same name, you can use the xy-grid to specify which source signal is connected to?

I guess you'll have to find a smaller teaspoon so that I can understand exactly what you're after 🙂

[frugal]

Hi rhesusminus,

Smallest teaspoon in my possession:

The signal code and description can both be used to differentiate multiple source signals, but they don't tell me to which components they go.

The xy-grid can indeed be used to indicate locations on a sheet, but I was trying to use the Reference in a more descriptive manner.

The benefit being that descriptive destinations would be explicitly listed at each source.

For example:

Sources:

{wire leading from Big_Red_Power_Supply}

Code: +5vdc

Reference: to Thing10, Thing20, Thing30

Description: 5vdc bus

Code: 5vdc neutral

Reference: to Thing11, Thing21, Thing31, Flushing_Meadows, Chassis_ground_on_my_sister's_car etc.

Description: 5vdc neutral bus

Destinations:

{wire leading to Thing10}

Code: +5vdc

Reference: from Big_Red_Power_Supply_Positive

Description: 5vdc bus

.

.

.

{wire leading to Chassis_ground_on_my_sister's_car}

Code: 5vdc neutral

Reference: from Big_RedPower_Supply_Neutral

Description: 5vdc neutral bus

The existing xy-References function exactly in this fashion listing all destinations at their source and all sources at the destination. I simply assumed that one could use custom values instead of the grid values or line numbers. Again, my misconception stems from the fact that the XREF variable is editable in the interface. Based on what I now understand, it simply shouldn't be.

Regards,

Fru

[frugal]

Hi drathak,

Yes and no: the concept is exactly right, but the Reference values are not.

I simply assumed that one could use custom values instead of the xy-References.

There is a longer explanation of how I thought this might work in the post below.

The xy-references are useful, just not as useful (I think) as being able to choose something arbitrary and have the database keep track of it for you.

Regards,

Fru

[controlsgirl]

this example cracked me up!

[drathak]

---

@frugal wrote:

Hi drathak,

Yes and no: the concept is exactly right, but the Reference values are not.

I simply assumed that one could use custom values instead of the xy-References.

There is a longer explanation of how I thought this might work in the post below.

The xy-references are useful, just not as useful (I think) as being able to choose something arbitrary and have the database keep track of it for you.

Regards,

Fru

---

I'm pretty sure you can add attributes to the signal blocks and edit those manually. There might be a away to get those into the database as well. But they wouldn't propagate changes. It would always be manual.