Signal Reference Arrows - constant issues with losing references & wire #s

[Anonymous]

Does anyone else have constant issues with these things on their projects?

If so, did you discover anything that helps, or figure out what causes it?

It seems that as I make chagnes to drawings, changes that have nothing to do with the signal references or their line numbers, these things seem to intermittently "break".

All it usually takes is a retag-update, but it's extremely annoying and time consuming to re-tag update 10, 20 or more sheets worth of signal refernces.  I usually have 2 ladders per page, and therefore 8 signal references per page.  It gets very, very cumbersome.

I'm new at this, but there's guys here in my office that have been using ACAD for years.  They all say "Yeah, that's just how signal references are; finicky."  It just doesn't seem right that nobody can fix this...

It *especially* seems to have problems with project-wide wire# updates.  They go haywire then.

[Anonymous]

The only thing you can do is update the references per drawing instead of project-wide.  Trust me, I feel your pain.

[Anonymous]

That's awesome (sigh).

I take flack at work about taking so long on my drafting, going over budget, etc.

It's hard enough as is without ACADE dropping the ball on me constantly.

[Anonymous]

Hi DirtyC

I feel for you as I have been in the same position.

I do not have any solutions for you but lots of empethy.

You did not mention what version you are using.

I am on a good machine with much memory and AE2012.  I must temper my comments with I have only been using AE for about 12 months ELECDES for 2 years.  They both have a distint personality.

I do not believe that AE2012 would run on the min requirements as spec by AutoDESK.

Well may be it would if you are in a training class and just doing exercises.

When I am drawing Symbols I need to restart the software from time to time as commands stop working.

A busy network does cause strange problems.   Two users of AE2010 or 2012 plus two Inventor needs a seperate network and server.  IMHO.

I do find if you reformat the tags etc from the default location in the symbol block  then a retag puts every thing back to where the locations are in the symbol blocks.

The formating of the blocks, by AutoDesk, seems to be biased for vertical ladder rungs while most logic drawings use horozontal ladder rungs

I feel for you with 60 drawings.  The last place I worked would have 20 and more drawings.

AE2012 does not clean up the tempory memory it uses.  I have memory usage screen shots to prove this. 

Regards  jq

[Anonymous]

Our group has been fighting this same exact issue for two years now with ACADE 2010 and had numerous conservations with our vendor and still no solution. They told us the Autodesk recgonizes this as an issue and has yet offer a solution or when a solution will be avaliable. I am also in the process of generating a case where the one line symbol, schematic and panel symbols don't update each other when the part information is changed in one of the of the three symbols. These two issues alone are why we refuse to upgrade from ACADE 2010 when the same issues from  have yet to be resolved with an update or new releases.  

[Anonymous]

AutoCAD gave me a fix for 2011 v2.1, so I'm stuck there.  I can't update to v3 or to 2012.  We're looking to cancel our subscription service.  No sense paying for updates when you can't use them.

[dougmcalexander]

I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble.  Of all the ECAD programs I've used, Electrical is my favorite.  But

I'm not seeing the problems listed in this thread.  I've been doing one-line diagrams with Electrical since version 2007, before it was officially supported.  I get cross-discipline updates just fine.  I'm using 2012 now and it adds the ability to copy data from a one-line symbol to a 3-line symbol, which is a nice enhancement.

I've had no problems with project-wide wire numbering either.  I wonder if you are mixing plain AutoCAD commands with Electrical.  Electrical needs to be in control.  It was once a separate program that installed into AutoCAD and used AutoCAD's drafting engine.  But Electrical makes the calls to AutoCAD when it needs an AutoCAD function.  many people coming from plain "dumb" AutoCAD struggle because they attempt to use a combination of plain AutoCAD commands and Electrical menu commands, expecting the software to figure out what they're doing.  There are some plain AutoCAD commands that can be used without "breaking" your drawings, but they are the long way around anyway.  Once you are familiar with the proper use of the Electrical tools provided on the Electrical menus, your workflow and drawing accuracy improve dramatically.  Electrical is a huge seller because it is best in class, but it does require training to harness its fullness.  Most people try to bypass proper training and thus they struggle to be successful.  I have trained numerous companies lately who have had Electrical for several years, but never realized its full capabilities.  Finally, after hearing of so many major corporations who are using Electrical successfully, they figured that maybe they have not been properly trained. 

There is no program available that is more intuitive and more dense with tools than Electrical, and I use other brands myself.  I am not an Autodesk employee.  I use whatever my customers dictate, but I am always happy when they dictate Electrical.

I also don't have any problems with source and destination arrows, none at all.  Autodesk has even improved it to check for wire type layer mismatches even if click OK instead of OK+Update Source.  Once linked, my arrows stay linked.  But even if they did become unlinked, they would get re-linked when I run what I call "Doug's recipe for release". I cover this in my training classes.

1. Project-wide update/retag with boxes for Component Retag, Cross-reference Update, Wire Number and Signal Tag/Retag, and Title Block Update

2. Drawing Audit

3. Electrical Audit

4. Re-run step 1 if changes were made as a result of steps 2 and 3

5. Generate Reports (I use Automatic Reports)

6. Update Drawing List table on drawing list page (if applicable)

7. Mark my drawings using the Mark/Verify Utility

8. Publish drawings

[Anonymous]

Quite a predicament we have here.

We have many users reporting the same issue.

Then we have a guy who I *know* knows his stuff because I've read much of his site.

I hear what you're saying Doug about the challange that people migrating to ACADE from ACAD can have.

You're right that when people try to "brute force things" the ACAD way, they break the "behind the scenes" stuff that ACADE is tracking for them.

However, I can assure you that is not the issue in my case.

I had no prior ACAD training.

So you can safely say that I bring no "tendencies" that I have no doubt others have (and probably don't even *realize* they have because they've done things a certain way for years - it becomes 2nd nature so they don't even realize they're doing it).

Perhaps some clarification woudl be order here.

It seems *to me* that signal references don't "like" being pointed at other drawings.

They work 99.9% of the time when the source & destination are on the same drawing.

But with the way my company has our templates drawn, the ladders "power rails" are vertical and go from drawing to drawing.  So there's signal references that point as such dwg1 -> dwg2 -> dwg3 -> dwg4 -> dwg5, etc.

For no aparent reason whatsoever, the signal references will frequently change to "??" question marks.

I know that will happen if you somehow delete the wire numbers, but that is usually not the case.

I'll have a destination arrow change to all questions marks, so I'll go to the drawing that contains the matching source.

The source arrow still shows the correct data.

Then I'll go back to the drawing with the destination arrow and the question marks, retag/update it, and every thing is fine again (the question marks go away and the correct data shows again).

I don't know what I expect you to do with this information.

But I did want to reply.

Especially because I can testify 100% that the issue is not being caused by doing things "the old way" (ACAD commands).

I've attached our template in case that gives you any additional information that might help, though I don't expect it will.

EDIT: apparently the site doesn't accept DWT attachments.

[dougmcalexander]

I will take a look at your template when I get a break. Typing this on my Blackberry at the moment. Be sure that the codes for your source and destinations are unique for each pair. Don't try to use the same code from drawing to drawing. It works for IEC style, but there is a trick to it. Normally it is best to use unique codes for each pair.

All software has bugs and Electrical I no different. Believe me, while I think it is best in class, I also send videos to Autodesk when I find issues. I have an issue where I get an error message after I shut down Electrical. I might get 30 of them. I send in 30 reports to Autodesk. This error popup doesn't happen until I close so it doesn't harm my projects, it's just annoying. But I will live with bugs before I will go back to plain AutoCAD. I have used the competition. They are not without bugs either. But any intelligent ECAD beats plain drafting.

I'm just not having problem with signal arrows like you seem to be having. Be sure you have all service packs installed. If you are using 2012, SP1 is available for download.

[Anonymous]

I didn't know SP1 was out now for 2012.  Looking through the list of fixes this issue is one of them:

"Wire signal cross references fails to update when project-wide signal reference update is performed."

I'll have to check it out.  Very exciting!!

[Anonymous]

I do make sure that each signal has a unique code.

We use very descriptive signal codes specifically to that doesn't happen.

I don't doubt that ACADE is best in class.

What I do doubt is that sig refs work the way they should 😉

I started this thread just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind.

If i was the only one having problems, then I'd be sure that it was my own errors.

While not ACADE's fault 100% of the time, I now know that it does have bugs.

When you're first learning something, you want to be that when you DO have the correct implementation, you're not left thinking it's wrong.  Because then you try to fix something that isn't broke and end up more confused than before.

I accept that sig refs are going to break for now reason.

I can report back to my company's ACADE committee (all drafters meet once a week to discuss standardizing our prints) that we're not losing our minds and that we're not all committing errors, that it's just something we'll have to live with for now.

[dougmcalexander]

All software has bugs.  They never get them all fixed.  Look at Windows, always sending you updates.  I know the bug count on some of the competition.  If you knew even the known bug count on a software you probably would never buy it.  It is a leading edge science.  Even NASA has problems and they quadruple-check everything.  They stress test circuit boards.  They might test 5000 and only fly 5 of them.  I picked that up at an ESD seminar.

Autodesk however, usually jumps on the "show-stopper" variety of bugs with a hotfix.  There were several hotfixes released shortly after 2012 hit the street.  There is now Service Pack 1.  You should download and install it, if you haven't already.  Version 2012 is definitely the greatest version to date.  Is there room for improvement?  Sure!  And version 2013 may improve some of those areas, while introducing new ones.  It's just the nature of the beast.  But it is also exciting to be on the leading edge of technology.  Think about those poor souls who draft schematics and panel layouts on plain "dumb" drafting programs everyday because their company doesn't realize the productivity they are losing. 

This type of software has existed since the late 1980s, automating electrical design, yet there are people still using plain dumb CAD tools.  It is hard to believe in 2011.  Do you know who Electrical's major competitor is?  AutoCAD LT (Limited Technology).  I find it almost amusing that it isn't promis-e, EPlan, or the like.  Either the marketing departments for the many ECAD programs have failed at their job or these people on AutoCAD LT are just stuck in a time warp.  There is no way I would ever go back to plain CAD!  Even if I have to work around a few bugs with the intelligent ECAD programs, I still save lots of time, produce better looking and more accurate drawings, and I have more fun at work.

[Anonymous]

Hello All

Source & destination arrows is interesting reading the above contributions.

I have used 2010 & now on 2012.   I always start witht the source arrow first and as we know after the source arrow is inserted a dialog box pops up asking if you want to do the destination arrow?

I find that if the destination arrow in on the same drawing I can insert the destination at that time.

I find it NEVER works on another sheet.

I just assumed it was a minor software bug that did not have a prioity to be fixed.

I also find that if I am doing a source/destination on a shield wire I add the shield AFTER I do the source/destination.   Another glitch.

The "up date" box on the destination box does seem to be more reliable in ACE2012.

Cheers  JohnQ

[darrell.l.gregg]

I get the same issue.

One thing I found that also helps besides dwg audit (electrical) is the project database rebuild, do a full update not just a freshen.

Signal arrows and terminalstrip editor are very finicky things in electrical.

Also if you are using terminals on a signal arrow network, be sure to use a "jumper" layer to connect them together, that has solved a lot of our problems with double lands and arrows getting confused.

DO NOT rely on the "terminal jumper" command, a wire layer that has the word "jumper" in it (like "terminal_jumper") is the best way to assure wire numbers stick on the network with terminals.

[Anonymous]

    Hey guys I have had this same problem, but I think I have a fix.

      I believe the problem occurs when the drawing is open before the project is active. I have also observed that the problem can come up if your computer goes to sleep with a project opened. The fix that works for me is to close AutoCAD and reopen the program. Be sour to set the active project before opening your drawings. When you reopen the drawings the update/retag will work.

[vladop]

What I do is:

• full database rebuild and then
• call TWICE Update Signal References.

[Anonymous]

I using ACADE 2014 and this problem still there. You can not even use Fixed wire number if a signal on the wire so you either have a wire number or a signal. How can they be missing this?

Boy sure wished or IT guys had not forced me to windows 7 other wise I would still be using Promis*E 5.04 on acad 2002 had its bug but signals were not one of them!

[dougmcalexander]

You can use a fixed wire number on a wire with a signal arrow.  I do it all the time.  You cannot change the wire number from the destination network.  You have to change the wire number on the source arrow network.  This applies to normal wire numbers as well.  Wire numbers feed forward from source to destination.  Only a source wire number can be edited.  Note: Run a signal reference update after change a source wire number and the destination wire number will update.  

This is necessary because AutoCAD Electrical follows AutoCAD's file management rules.  This ensures drawing data integrity.  I use the other programs as well.  They may appear to make changes instantly but they write the change to the database and change the other drawings the next time they are opened.  The plus side of AutoCAD Electrical being drawing-driven is that the data stays in the drawing; the database is a temporary file that is used to expedite internal functions of the software.  You can delee the project database without losing data.  The way to lose drawing data is to delete the drawing with Windows Explorer.

I suspect that you may be attempting to change a wire number on a destination network instead of the source.

[Anonymous]

It's looking like the wire signal are being placed as stand alone signal losing the wire number that why I'm getting the ??? for wire numbers. So it knows that is continous wire  just does not know what to label it.

I was not trying to change the wire number just trying display the correct wire number not the ??? I am getting.

[dougmcalexander]

What is your wire tagging format? Sequential? Line reference based? Zone based like IEC? You must have something set incorrectly or incomplete. Signal arrows work reliably for me and I have used this software since 1997. ??? can indicate that no wire numbering method is defined .