Same component on multiple drawings.

[Anonymous]

Is there a way to reference one schematic component on multiple drawings and have them updated if one drawing or another change. For example i want to show a control panel w/ detail connections to a remote operators station. On the control panel drawing, i draw up the ladder diagram w/ the remote located start stop pushbuttons. On the operators station drawing, i draw up the start/stop pushbutton just wired to terminal blocks.

[Anonymous]

Any answers to this yet? I'd like to do the same thing. My specific example is to link a one-line diagram to each elementary. Would like to link main components (starters, motors, etc.).

[jmburge]

I am interested in this as well. Has anyone got a way to do this?

[dougmcalexander]

Just at a quick glance I would explore the peer-to-peer functionality, specifically using the Tag1 Part1 and Tag1 Part2 functionality. Look in the ACE Help menu and search for peer-to-peer or Tag1 Part1 for a guide.

[jmburge]

Doug, I found that I could insert wiring diagram symbols instead of footprints from the Insert Footprint dialog and then run the Schematic Wire Connections--->Footprint tool. I did explore "peer-to-peer", but it seems this will work better for me.

[Anonymous]

I am having problems with this same situation. I draw a schematic ladder diagram showing relay contacts, TBs, PLC I/O that is then shown on the PLC schematic on another drwawing. ACE wants to treat the contact as a new contact even when I use the pin #s of from the other drawing for that contact. It also insists on creating new wire #s, even when the TB #s are the same as the first drawing. What am I missing??

Wes

[dougmcalexander]

AcadE is intelligent. It looks at the project as a whole and tries to spot
duplication. It is a feature. You are duplicating components if you show
them twice. There is a peer-to-peer feature that allows two different tags
for the same device, such as a solenoid with SOL but the valve it actuates
can be shown in a P&ID drawing as FV. AcadE can be made to see both as the
same device using the WDTAGALT attribute function. Look in the help system
under advanced productivity for more on this. But what you are doing is
duplicating components and the program is doing its job to prevent
duplication. There is a line in the WD.ENV file that allows you to list a
certain group of wire numbers that will not be checked for duplication. But
again, AcadE sees an entire project as a whole and does not expect to see
the same tags and wire numbers in duplicate, just like we would not want to
build the panel with two of every component and wire.

wrote in message news:5673915@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having problems with this same situation. I draw a schematic ladder
diagram showing relay contacts, TBs, PLC I/O that is then shown on the PLC
schematic on another drwawing. ACE wants to treat the contact as a new
contact even when I use the pin #s of from the other drawing for that
contact. It also insists on creating new wire #s, even when the TB #s are
the same as the first drawing. What am I missing??

Wes

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the insight. The inability to recognize the same component appearing in two drawings and showing correct wire numbers, etc is going to limit the usefulness of ACADE in our office. A complete set of electrical drawings include PLC schematics, PLC loop drawings and electrical control schematics. Terminal numbers, wires and contacts/coils are shown several times within this drawing set. To have to go to each and every component and configure it differently each time it is shown increases the workload beyond the value of the positive aspects, I'm afraid.

Wes
Electrical Designer

[dougmcalexander]

You can have loop drawings in the project as reference drawings by checking
the box for reference only in drawing properties. ACE is designed to
document current flow for controls schematics. Vanilla ACAD gives total
freedom because it is dumb and has no task of error checking based upon
electrical current flow. The big benefits of ACE are wire from/to list, BOM,
label reports, etc. that fall out of the design at the end without
additional hours. Also, error checking to keep you from duplicating wire
numbers, tags, etc. Also auto-tagging, and auto-numbering of ladders. So
enjoy those benefits. But to keep ACE from seeing duplicate tags and wire
numbers in your loop drawings, set them for reference only.

wrote in message news:5679292@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks for the insight. The inability to recognize the same component
appearing in two drawings and showing correct wire numbers, etc is going to
limit the usefulness of ACADE in our office. A complete set of electrical
drawings include PLC schematics, PLC loop drawings and electrical control
schematics. Terminal numbers, wires and contacts/coils are shown several
times within this drawing set. To have to go to each and every component and
configure it differently each time it is shown increases the workload beyond
the value of the positive aspects, I'm afraid.

Wes
Electrical Designer

[Anonymous]

I am an electrical designer and have just started using Autocad Electrical, I work in a switchgear company and we produce 33kV protection schematics which involves a fair bit of interlocking. This results in the same contacts being shown in different drawings, for example a contact off a relay in a Bus Section panel will be shown in this panel and also shown in the Feeder panel next to as it is interlocked with it. We have been inserting  the same component in and exploding one of them so Electrical doesn't produce an error when running a report. My company think there must be a quicker an easier way of showing the same contact twice without producing an error report. As they have invested quite a sum of money in this program does anyone know if what I want can be done. We also produce interlocking overview drawings which may show the contact for a third time. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Can the contacts be linked together some way>

Regards

Paul

[Anonymous]

Good afternoon all.

I have seen a number of posts on this topic, but no solutions.  Maybe I missed it. 

We are just getting started using AutoCad Electrical 2015 for doing designs of relay systems for large high voltage substations. 

We are using a lot of electronic relays (SEL) in these stations.  Each relay has multiple inputs and outputs.

There is usually a schematic for each relay.  But some of the contacts are used in other schemes. 

If you take a look at the Attached document.  There is a relay (CR107) on the left of the document.  There is a contact A07-A08 that is part of this relay, but is actually wired into another schematic (on the far right, with wire numbers 109B and 109C).  What we are trying to do is have the contact on the left back at the location where all of the contacts on this relay will be shown, reflect the correct information about where the contact in actually wired (far right). 

Any help would be appreciated. 

[Anonymous]

Good afternoon all.

This Time with the attachement

I have seen a number of posts on this topic, but no solutions.  Maybe I missed it. 

We are just getting started using AutoCad Electrical 2015 for doing designs of relay systems for large high voltage substations. 

We are using a lot of electronic relays (SEL) in these stations.  Each relay has multiple inputs and outputs.

There is usually a schematic for each relay.  But some of the contacts are used in other schemes. 

If you take a look at the Attached document.  There is a relay (CR107) on the left of the document.  There is a contact A07-A08 that is part of this relay, but is actually wired into another schematic (on the far right, with wire numbers 109B and 109C).  What we are trying to do is have the contact on the left back at the location where all of the contacts on this relay will be shown, reflect the correct information about where the contact in actually wired (far right). 

Any help would be appreciated. 

[drathak]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Good afternoon all.

This Time with the attachement

I have seen a number of posts on this topic, but no solutions.  Maybe I missed it. 

We are just getting started using AutoCad Electrical 2015 for doing designs of relay systems for large high voltage substations. 

We are using a lot of electronic relays (SEL) in these stations.  Each relay has multiple inputs and outputs.

There is usually a schematic for each relay.  But some of the contacts are used in other schemes. 

If you take a look at the Attached document.  There is a relay (CR107) on the left of the document.  There is a contact A07-A08 that is part of this relay, but is actually wired into another schematic (on the far right, with wire numbers 109B and 109C).  What we are trying to do is have the contact on the left back at the location where all of the contacts on this relay will be shown, reflect the correct information about where the contact in actually wired (far right). 

Any help would be appreciated. 

---

Hi Paul!

This is absolutely possible and exactly how ACADE works.  I work in the Utility Industry as well. The way we handle this is we make the power supply for the SEL the parent symbol and all the inputs, outputs, sensing coils, etc. are children.  On the schematic the parts can be iin different areas of the same drawing or on different sheets.  Also, I have my one lines, panel layouts and wiring diagrams showing different representations of the same devices and all are connected and update each other.

You can also make those "schemes" into saved circuits, or Standard Circuits as we are calling them.  Or as a single huge block.  It's up to you.

What part of the world are you in? And are you a utility or an engineering firm?

Almost forgot my attachment.  Here is a sheet from one of my substations.  Is this more or less what you are looking for?  (We used our existing symbols and made them smart, in case you are wondering.)

[drathak]

Oh, I meant to include all the communications for our substations is being handled in Electrical too.  Those are just more "parts" of the relays.  Fiber optics can be represented as wires and cable very easily.  It's a pretty big sandbox to play in.

In the attached drawing almost all of the components are children with parts elsewhere.  If you look, you'll find parts of the relays shown on that other drawing.

And lastly, I have included a one line diagram.  Does any of this jive with what you are looking for?

[metal_pro2]

This is what I have been doing since 2006 to overcome your issue.

As your aware AutoCAD Electric allows you to have only one Schematic parent with Multiple Children (Symbols with the TAG1 and TAG2 attributes). People usually have one panel component for the corresponding Schematic symbol (P_TAG1).

You can have multiple panel component representations (P_TAG1) in a project with the same TAG and AutoCAD electric will update them All. A panel component doesn't have to look like a physical component it can be a schematic representation just as long as it has P_TAG1 attribute. 

I just did a project with 350 drawings including schematics, single line diagrams, connection diagrams, instrument Loop Diagrams and Panel layout.

My single line symbols all have the P_TAG1, My loop symbols all have the P_TAG1, Connection diagram symbols also have the P_TAG1. If I were to change the rating of a circuit breaker it would change the value in all 5 types of drawings.

You need to use the command "Child Location/Description update" a bit when creating the different drawings.

It has its limits with terminals (can't do it) but with some work-arounds, it works pretty good.

[drathak]

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:

This is what I have been doing since 2006 to overcome your issue.

As your aware AutoCAD Electric allows you to have only one Schematic parent with Multiple Children (Symbols with the TAG1 and TAG2 attributes). People usually have one panel component for the corresponding Schematic symbol (P_TAG1).

---

 I'm with you so far.

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:

You can have multiple panel component representations (P_TAG1) in a project with the same TAG and AutoCAD electric will update them All. A panel component doesn't have to look like a physical component it can be a schematic representation just as long as it has P_TAG1 attribute. 

---

 This is where you start to lose me. Could you explain more about why you would show additional schematic representations that weren't schematic symbols?

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:

I just did a project with 350 drawings including schematics, single line diagrams, connection diagrams, instrument Loop Diagrams and Panel layout.

My single line symbols all have the P_TAG1, My loop symbols all have the P_TAG1, Connection diagram symbols also have the P_TAG1. If I were to change the rating of a circuit breaker it would change the value in all 5 types of drawings.

---

  ACE has a built in method for this in the WDTYPE attribute.  For example, in my designs I have both the substation single line and communications single line built with symbols carrying the "1-" value in WDTYPE.  The program is designed to see these as peer symbols that have other representations in the schematic model. 

My layout (front view) symbols carry "-FV" in addition to the P_TAG1 attribute.  Then on my wiring drawings, the symbols are the base P_TAG1 panel symbols. 

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:

You need to use the command "Child Location/Description update" a bit when creating the different drawings.

It has its limits with terminals (can't do it) but with some work-arounds, it works pretty good.

---

 And everything works without any work-arounds.  Edit any symbol on any type of drawing and ACE will propagate the changes.  (With the exception of having to re-run wiring info.)

We don't do loop diagrams, but that is one area I can possibly see doig it your way, but more than likely I would have went the route of using another WDTYPE value.  ("LOOP" seems appropriate.)

[metal_pro2]

Sometimes I may be required to show a component schematically twice in the same project. The Attached Bitmaps show the E-stop Chain for all Local operator panels in one drawing. Each individual Operator panel is also detailed in schematics in separate drawing sections and shows the E-Stop operators (duplicated). I put some red circles around some 'Source" symbols on the E-stop chain drawing that link to the Destination Hex symbols on the LOP drawing. These source symbols look just like lines with invisible attributes but work to link the wires between the two drawings so wire numbering is automatically carried thru and Cable To/From reports work.

My work arounds pre-date when AutoCAD added the "symbols carrying the "1-" value in WDTYPE" functionality. I just never bothered to spend some time investigating it. I know when it fist was introduced I wasn't impressed but perhaps I better take another look.

[drathak]

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:

Sometimes I may be required to show a component schematically twice in the same project. The Attached Bitmaps show the E-stop Chain for all Local operator panels in one drawing. Each individual Operator panel is also detailed in schematics in separate drawing sections and shows the E-Stop operators (duplicated). I put some red circles around some 'Source" symbols on the E-stop chain drawing that link to the Destination Hex symbols on the LOP drawing. These source symbols look just like lines with invisible attributes but work to link the wires between the two drawings so wire numbering is automatically carried thru and Cable To/From reports work.

My work arounds pre-date when AutoCAD added the "symbols carrying the "1-" value in WDTYPE" functionality. I just never bothered to spend some time investigating it. I know when it fist was introduced I wasn't impressed but perhaps I better take another look.

---

OK.  I can see that now.  Rather inventive solution. 

Again, I haven't tackled loop diagrams.  How exactly are they used, if you don't mind me asking?

[metal_pro2]

Loop diagrams don't seem to be as common now days. Its a duplication of the information already shown in the schematics so its viewed as an extra unnecessary cost.
I got the explanation below from "instrumentationportal.com" They have some good explanations and sample drawing

"Loop diagram represents detailed drawing showing a connection from one point to control system. It could be connection between:

Field instrument to control system (or vice versa)
Signal from Control Panel to control system (or vice versa)
Signal from MCC to control system (or vice versa)
Signal form one control system to another system
The purpose of instrument loop diagram
It is used in checking of a correct installation and connection when tested during pre-commissioning, commissioning and also for trouble shooting during operation."

[drathak]

---

@metal_pro2 wrote:
Loop diagrams don't seem to be as common now days. Its a duplication of the information already shown in the schematics so its viewed as an extra unnecessary cost.
I got the explanation below from "instrumentationportal.com" They have some good explanations and sample drawing

"Loop diagram represents detailed drawing showing a connection from one point to control system. It could be connection between:

Field instrument to control system (or vice versa)
Signal from Control Panel to control system (or vice versa)
Signal from MCC to control system (or vice versa)
Signal form one control system to another system
The purpose of instrument loop diagram
It is used in checking of a correct installation and connection when tested during pre-commissioning, commissioning and also for trouble shooting during operation."

---

So kind of like a more detailed one-line?  Or maybe a simplified schematic?

I had a conversation about these with a colleague a while back and he thinks ACE could be used to drive those from a schematic, rather than having to make separate drawings.  By that I mean you could generate loop drawings on the fly from the data in the model rather than having to still duplicate effort like you are now.

Could you post or email me a sample of your schematics and the accompanying loop diagrams?  I would like to understand these more in general.  My friend and I were talking specifically about tripping paths in a substation, or alarm paths, etc.  But understanding more ways it can be used would make asking for a new tool better.  😉