RSWire vs. ACE

[Anonymous]

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Could anyone offer me some input re: their use of RSWire? I would also appreciate a comparison or personal preference of RSWire vs. ACE. If you have switched from one to the other, what prompted the switch?


Thanks!

[Anonymous]

RSWire and Promis-E are the same thing. There have been some very long threads in this forum on the merits of RSWire/Promis-E vs. AutoCAD Electrical. And no one seems to have been "converted" one way or the other by these discussions! My comments here are not a "put down" of RSWire/Promis-E. If it works for you, go for it. And for those who might be tempted, don't jump in here just to blast ACE or RSWire/Promis-E. Let's talk about the product features and capabilites.

There are a lot of users who swear by RSWire/Promis-E, and ti works for them. There are a lot of users who swear by AutoCAD Electrical, and it works for them. I am one of them, and therefore a bit biased toward ACE. Several years ago I had training on Promis-E, but currently use AutocAD Electrical exclusively.

I chose ACE (then Toolbox/WD) for several reasons. It is totally AutoCAD (we'd been using AutoCAD for years), user friendly, customizable, I was able to make it work, cost (at them time, about half), and a few other reasons. I was also able to convert all my custom AutoCAD symbols into ACE.

Does RSWire/Promis-E have features not found in ACE? Sure. Does ACE have features not found in RSWire/Promis-E? You bet. We all hve to decide for ourselves what product is the best fit for the work we do, whether is be RSWire/Promis-E, Eplan, ACE, or some other CAD package.

Good Luck.

[Anonymous]

Sorry to be so blunt but I wouldn't touch RSwire with a barge pole. RSwire is built around a core of pretty basic autocad. I'm sure that since, autodesk launched ACE the flow of information between the 2 companies (ECS and Autodesk) is probably flakey at best. Our company found RSwire way too expensive per seat compared to ACE, and thats before you've added the support contract (and you will need it). The software itself does have a number of bugs (as most do) but the fixes I have been aware of for sometime have not been forthcoming. At least with ACE the support is here. People actually coding ACE visit this discussion group and do help! If you already use acad, your cad administator will be happy with ACE as it is somthing they are already comfortable with. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

[dougmcalexander]

I agree with Martin. I used Promis-e from 1991 until 1997. The original Promis-e was developed in Germany and ran on a UNIX or DOS platform. Then a US company converted some of the code to operate inside AutoCAD so it would appear as an AutoCAD tool. VIA had already done this so it was an appealing concept, having electrical controls capabilities inside of the AutoCAD environment.

I was very comfortable with Promis-e so it was a natural progression to "upgrade" to the AutoCAD version. So we purchased the RS-Wire version when it became available through Rockwell. We knew that RS-Wire was the same as Promis-e but we reasoned it a good thing to purchase from Rockwell since we already bought many components from them and we had a good relationship with our supplier. But RS-Wire crashed on install and it took 3 days for someone to call me back. I then encountered problems with the accuracy and integrity of the wire list. I called Rockwell support and they were so new to the program that they were not prepared to help.

So I returned RS-Wire and purchased 2 seats of Promis-e ADS directly from the US company that imported it. This was the better choice anyway because RS-Wire was always about 6 months behind Promis-e's latest release due to the time involved converting all the screens and manuals to read RS-Wire instead of Promis-e. But once again I ran into bugs with this AutoCAD version of Promis-e. It was also missing some of the features that I had come to rely upon in the original UNIX/DOS version. When their tech support explained to me that the wire list bug had been on the list for three years, but that it wasn't considered high priority, that was when I went back to using the UNIX/DOS version. I had made it work inside the Windows environment by then and it served out purpose well, except that our panel layouts were still "dumb" drawings, not linked to the schematic.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the ability to generate a from/to list is paramount to my job and it saves enough money with each release that the original Promis-e from Germany and now ACADE have paid for themselves many times over just from that one feature alone. The tech support for Promis-e ADS told me to generate my from/to list and edit it with notepad to make the corrections. Well, that puts me back to manually verifying the wire list, thus opening up the possibility for human error. A friend and former Promis-e instructor told me about Toolbox/WD. In 1997 we switched to Toolbox/WD , now known as AutoCAD Electrical, and we have never looked back. We still have 2 seats of Promis-e ADS that we will use when a customer insists, but we do those projects kicking and screaming.

Fortunately ACADE has become the standard and there are not many requests for any other drawing formats anymore. I like ACADE so much that I am an unofficial ambassador for it. I use and I teach it as an independent instructor/application engineer. I know the people behind the development of ACADE very well and I know that they work extremely hard to please us all, even when our requests are strange or even stupid. They are that dedicated to listening to the users. They hold regular customer councils and "gunslinger" events to solicit customer input, so ACADE is truly driven by its users, not the hackers who bang out the code. Is there room for improvement? Always! Who do I trust to continue making advancements in the area of ECAD technology by leaps and not mere steps? Autodesk and the ACADE development staff.

[Anonymous]

Doug's comments regarding Acade and the product development team are very well stated, and I add a hearty "Amen".

These folks work very hard to constantly improve ACE for all users. For the 1000s of users, there are 1000s of ways that ACE is used, and they somehow manage to please all of us. For example, they spent a lot of time working out the BOM report generator to list a specific field for my needs, and that means a lot. One of the current hot items they're working has involved many users from Asia, the US, and Europe, and included a live webcast with user/developer interaction. Way Cool. And is there another product that gives users the opportunity to evaluate an upcoming release and provide input on its functionallity? And while the "bells and whistles" of a product are great, the behind the scenes support is equally important.

[Anonymous]

Hi Redcross,

I wouldn't discount any of the Ecad packages. It's in your best interest to put them through the test. Make them work for it. Ask the questions, and show them your drawings, and see how they offer solutions and automation. Make them do their homework.

Doug and Martin have offered their opinions and now I will share mine. Especially when you see from their posts here that they are talking about RS Wire/Promis-e 10 years ago (which they do in every other post on here when they try to rip the competition). Which Doug admits that he gets paid to train and is affiliated with ACE... HHMMMMM?

Now lets get to the truth of the matter. I have used AcadE (WDToolbox) at my previous position, and have evaluated ACADE several times in recent years including 2005. We have chosen promise "hands down". promise is BY FAR more powerful and customizable than any product out there, and I'm not kidding. Open source technology allows me to get in and get the data that I need out in REAL TIME to our purchasing system and bin location system. The use of real time capabilities saves my users time and errors when they happen. AcadE has to scan every page when you want to make sure that you haven't made any mistakes, our projects are between 200-400 pages, and that eats away alot of the days time to scan the project 5 times over to look for errors. Only now to have to go back and fix all of the errors that have happened all day. NO THANKS.

As far as support - you have to be a Doug McAlexander or Martin Lee to know the inside people I guess because there is no tech support for AcadE - you are looking at it. Its all e-mail based from other users and moderator. If I have a problem, I need an answer now, not in 3 days when someone reads it and decides to reply. Yes promise has a support agreement, because you get a LIVE intelligent person WHEN you call. Those folks are fantastic with helping with supporting and customization of promise. The last time that I had the ACADE people in for demo - they couldn't even run it, and after a half hour they wanted to re-schedule and have someone else do the demo.

I say try them all. Get the reps in, and make them do their homework and offer solutions for your application. Just because its Autodesk DOESN'T means its the best. they just bought out an Ecad package (WD Toolbox), marketed it as their own, and got into a industry that they really don't understand.

[dougmcalexander]

Dennis, I appreciate your thoughts. However I must clarify that I do not work for Autodesk. I am independent. I still have my Promis-e keys because one of my customers requires documentation in their format. So I am not referring to a 10-year-old package. I admit that Promis-e has some fine features. Heck, I was using it when they had 5 employees. I saw it grow. I was there when they had to start making it more like "WD" with open architecture and mdb capabilities.

As for support, Autodesk, like ECT, offers the same paid support for fast and efficient response. Try calling Microsoft for free support. Not available there either. Try to find a user forum like this on Microsoft's Web site.

I agree with you on one thing. In the end everyone has to decide what is best for them. If Promis-e has capabilities that you think fit your needs better, and you trust them to keep pace with the ever-changing world of CAD technology, then by all means purchase it. They will appreciate it. If you later discover, like may of us, that ACADE is the better overall solution, positioned best for the future of CAD technology, ACADE has a Promis-e conversion utility.

I am not biased. I once conducted demos of Promis-e, helping promote their program when it was truly the best. Why? Because I believed in it. When the US company "acquired" the code and ported it into ACAD, I gave it a whirl. I still saw the German code in it but I discovered many flaws that the German version did not have. I can't say enough good about the original Promis-e from Technishe Computer Services GmbH. But that program no longer exists. It was turned into a "parasitic" application that uses AutoCAD as an operating environment. While I still use it on occasion, I still prefer ACADE.

Like I said, both programs have features that are attractive. But looking at it from a day-to-day ease-of-use standpoint, ACADE comes out on top. The parts database alone has grown over 200% since Autodesk purchased the program. Many advances have been made and I see great ideas within this forum, which will no doubt become features in the future.

To be fair, I come down hard on the developers of ACADE sometimes. Just ask some of them, or look at some of my posts on this forum. They know what my pet peeves are. But since there is no perfect software, not even the operating system we use to run ACADE and Promis-e, there is always room for improvement. So who do you trust to move forward with, a company with the resources of Autodesk and a commitment to be the best no matter what? I do!

[Anonymous]

Yes, I tried Promis-e in 1997 and 1998, had a total of three weeks of training on it, and still could not make it work. I admit that I am not the smartest kid on the block when it comes to PCs and various applications. Some of my co-workers run circles around me with ACE, and I've been using CAD for over 20 years now. Thanks to ECTI, I as able to evaluate Promis-e again last summer, and still could not make it work. My apologies to the folks at ECTI, but the basic issues for me with Promis-e haven't changed since 1999. Sure, it may have more bells and whisles now, but what good are they if you can't make the application work? But just because I couldn't make it work doesn't mean that others shouldn't use it. Now, if there are those who can make it work, such as you, Dennis, glory be! But don't damn those of us who have found something that does work, and are willing to share that information with others.

For all of my ignorance, and there's plenty of it, I was able to learn and make ACE work without any training on it at all. I used the Users Guide, and just sat down and made it work. And there has been much discussion regarding the issue of Autodesk bringing back the printed version of the users guide, though the on-line help is pretty good. I don't have an inside track to any ACE support more than anyone else. I read this forum and glean a lot of valuable information from it.
I do not work for Autodesk, never have, nor have they ever given me any compensation for anything. I promote ACE because it works ((I've listed some of the main reasons in other posts), and more than some other CAD aplications, fits the KISS philosophy better.

[Anonymous]

Well - first of all - thank you Doug and Martin for your responses. But once again I will have to interject. Martin you had made a statement that you had to work with Autodesk to get your custom fields into the report features, and Doug you said that WD had open architecture and mdb capabilities. First of all if WD/ACE had open architecture - then you could have added this field yourself. When in fact you can not (not internally intelligent anyway). And ACE uses weak scripts and not an API that allows for complete customization. You cannot write any routines that accepts input from the user. You can only execute scripted commands. HIGHLY limiting to anyone needing complete customization.

In promise you can write ANY SQL string to write customized reports AND error checking. How invaluable is it for a company to be able to EASILY write something such as a gauge checking report to see if a gauge is improperly connect to the wrong terminal. Yes real time error reports are already in promise, but I am able to write ANYTHING that I want. You have no such features in ACE. So Martins comments of Keep it Simple Stupid must be correct, because if you want something simple and limiting - then go for AutoCAD Electrical. That is exactly what you will get.

And as far as the databases, right on ECT's web site, you can download 1.8 MILLION parts from various manufactures. Yes that was 1.8 Million parts. AutoCAD is to busy on ALL of their other products to worry about ACE. And once it doesn't make money they'll drop it like every other product that doesn't make money. ECT had been committed for a long time to the electrical industry. So to your comment of "Who do you trust for the future?" my answer is someone who understands it and is committed to it, and wont drop it once it doesn't make them any more money.

[Anonymous]

Doug - ECT doesn't offer 3 weeks of training. And I like your comment about all of the discussion of ACE to "bring back" the printed version of the users guide. Just Icing in the cake for them not really caring about you or the electrical industry. Why is there a discussion? Why wouldn't they just have a users guide or documentation. Maybe they just want to see how this goes, and then if it doesn't work they'll drop it, and if it does work - maybe they'll think about supporting it or getting some documentation together.

Good luck with the "simple" solution.

[Anonymous]

In 2004 Autodesk spent most of their demo time trying to bash promise (WHY?), and that they were going to put ECT out of business in 2004. ECT said "evaluate their product:". In 2005, AutoDesk said they were going to put ECT out of business in 2005, the ACE salesman couldnt demo thier own product, tried to reschedule. Ect said "evaluate their product". FEB 2006, had the ACE vendor in (promise is supposed to be gone 2 years now), where are the ACE libraries they told me they were going to have last year? Its 2006, ECT is no where near out of business, and I say EVALUATE THE PRODUCT. You can not get any more UNBIASED than that. You will see how far more superior it really is. And DO NOT take my word for it - check it out for yourself and leave all of the other comments right here - as opinions from users.

[Anonymous]

good to see someone else champion the look at what there is and make it work for you concept

tried the promis e to autocad2007 conversion tool and it didnt do it on the promis e sample project (nice start there)

the manual problem has been flooged to death so i wont comment except the help files are still useless

the one comment i liked form you which cuts the ACADE zealots down cold is large projects its runs like a pig if its a large project and you cant get away from that fact other products fly while acade is still thinking what its going to do next
as to parts databases very good for USA but whats supplied is approx 40-50% useless in europe the manufactures have little or no presence or the part numbers dont tally

there is enoumous pressure from autodesk to make this product work something is going to give

some dealeships are out right lying to autodesk on the acade potential leads
sales havent hit forcast for two years running so somethings going to happen

watch this space

[Anonymous]

The name is MARTIN, not Doug. . .

And I am not stupid or a liar. I know that ECTI doesn't offer three weeks of training. My employer paid out big bucks to have a rep (the Promis-e "Guru") come to my location for a 3rd week of one-on-one training. You'd think that after three weeks of training a dummy would eventually get it.

As for the "simple solution", I got more out of it in the first two months than I did in two years of working with Promis-e full time. I spent over $100,000 US of my employers money and have nothing to show for it. Not one project was ever completed.

As I said earlier, if it works for you and others, great. Unfortunately, this thread is become like so many others regarding ACE/Promis-e where some idiots just want to bash ACE and won't leave it alone.

Now for this discussion group. It is a great forum in which to share ideas and ask questions and get answers from all users. If you are so super smart with Promis-e and don't want or need ideas from other Promis-e users, then goody-goody for you. OOPS! I almost forgot, I am the dummy here.

[dougmcalexander]

This is Doug, not Martin. Dennis, it is obvious that you are a happy Promis-e user, so I am baffled as to why you are participating in a discussion forum designed for those of us who use AutoCAD Electrical so we can share ideas and gather tips and tricks. Hats off to Autodesk for not filtering out the negative marketing campaigns by the "competition's" plants on a forum that Autodesk hosts. That makes it clear to me that Autodesk as a company is confident in what they have and that they need not stoop to negative marketing campaigns.

I assure you that you will not see my name on any existing discussion forums for ECTi and Promis-e, bashing their product to their user groups. I do not make it a habit to bash the competition. In fact, I try to avoid it at all costs. I only respond on this forum when the criticism becomes ridiculous and lacks foundation in principle.

I am not paid for the time I spend on this forum, nor do I expect to be. I do this as a service to my fellow AutoCAD Electrical users at my own expense. Why? Because I believe in the product. I have no agenda against or for ECTi, nothing but a balanced view of each program, since I use both. While there are clear strengths in both programs, as well as weaknesses in both, AutoCAD Electrical comes out on top for the features and tools that I need 90% of the time. If we could merge the best of both Promis-e and AutoCAD Electrical into one package, I suppose it would be phenomenal, but there would still be those who would visit the discussion forum for ACE/Promis-e and bash it too, because it doesn't design the panels for them automatically.

[dougmcalexander]

I started using AutoCAD Electrical in 1997 when there were no IEC symbols or parts listed in the catalog. But when I purchased Promis-e, they charged $1200 extra for the IEC Library. In the early versions of Promis-e there were very few symbols of any kind. You had to make your own. I made my own IEC library symbols for both Promis-e and AutoCAD Electrical (then known as Toolbox/WD). Why? Because if a symbol library had existed, I might not have liked the exact look of the symbols anyway. Nobody can please everyone 100% of the time. Besides, I got into CADD because enjoy being creative. I like creating my own symbols.

If the program comes with every symbol I can imagine I might need, I don't get to control the final look of my documentation as much. I only get to decide where the symbols are placed. I want my drawings to look different enough that they have my "signature" on them.

Since ACADE started shipping with two IEC libraries a few years ago, I still use my own symbols most of the time. I may copy one of the ACADE symbols into my custom library and modify them slightly to fit my drafting style, just to avoid starting from scratch.

So I am shocked at all the bashing of ACADE based upon symbol libraries and parts databases. What next? Do you want voice recognition and you just tell ACADE to design a Drive circuit, 3-Phase, 10 horsepower...and let ACE size the wiring, starter, overload, etc.? That sounds great! Then Autodesk can just start selling to the marketing departments of their customers, instead of engineering, and let the salesman design the controls using voice commands. Where will you controls engineers work then?