Issue with scale of schematic components and line numbers

[AmandaV1]

I am using Autocad Electrical 2014 and am having an ongoing issue with the scale of components, line numbers etc. I am relatively new to the world of electrical, so please be gentle!

Background: The A3 Electrical titleblocks that we are using in our office have a viewport scale of 0.485925, and a drawing component scale of 30 (“feature scale multiplier” set in Drawing Properties). This was set up long ago, apparently to accommodate a larger drawing template, and now carries through all of our electrical drawings. When I installed Autocad I set my library path to IEC (as am in Australia ie metric), however previous drawings have been built using JIC libraries. Sections of these JIC library drawings are used to make new drawings etc etc, thus new drawings have both JIC and also IEC components in them….

So now, when I insert components in schematics, they are either the correct size, huge or micro, depending on the drawing.

So, how can I make sure components are inserted at the right size?

A few questions:

1. If I was to continue to use the current titleblock scale and component scale settings, is there a way I can purge “pasted” drawings of their inbuilt component scale settings (ie when cutting and pasting from old drawings) so I am not carrying over any old scales/settings? Or lock the current component scale so it overrides any other incoming scales?  
2. If I was to make a new A3 titleblock and assign new drawing settings from scratch, what would be the correct library and component scale to use?

I have attached a sample drawing and a screenshot of my library menu path. A million thank-yous in advance!

[dougmcalexander]

I use A3 as well, for my IEC projects, but my Feature Scale Multiplier is set to 1.  I have the project set to use the IEC4 library.  You are on the right track though. I know you gys work from the AS-2000 standard, but the symbols are very much like IEC, except the orientation of wipers for some contact symbols.

People get carried away with the Feature Scale Multiplier.  It was not intended for metric to English conversion, or vice versa.  The Modify Symbol Library utility handles that best.  I recommend using the proper symbol library according to the drawing size you are using, or scaling a library to fit, using the aforementioned Modify Symbol Library utility. 

The Feature Scale Multiplier is helpful for slight changes in scale..  I recommend no more than a value of 2, and no less than 0.5, if you really must change it. But it is best to scale the library, if the need arises for a conversion involving metric and English.

It seems that your situation stems from the fact that someone used JIC symbols in a metric drawing.  Thus they set the FSM to a high number, so the JIC symbol, normally inserted into ANSI D-size (34x22 inches) drawings would fit a metric drawing.  The JIC symbol must be 25.4 times larger in order to appear at the same relative size that it did in the ANSI environment.

I have scaled the IEC libraries so they fit an ANSI drawing as well, using the Modify Symbol Library utility.  But I have to use a factor of 0.03937 or 1/25.4 in order to create the proper scale.  But if you use the IEC4 library on an actual A3 drawing size, you should not have to worry about scale.

P.S.  I have had the pleasure of teaching AutoCAD Electrical in your great country.  The funny thing is that a company I trained in Tasmania actually decided to use an American ladder diagram format (vertical ladders), but of course on A3 with IEC/AS symbols.

[Icemanau · Accepted solution]

Nice to meet another Aussie here.

There is a library that ships with ACADE for Australia which is the AS2 library. My suggestion would be to use this for the standard library in your dwgs.

As Doug said, the AS2 library is based on the IEC library but complies with the Australian standards.

Dougs comments on the Feature Scale Multiplier are also spot on. It's to allow tweaking of blocks rather than overall scaliing of them. You can use the tool Doug suggested to do scale all the library blocks at once, or change the insert scale in the icon menu if you need to scale something individually.

I would suggest creating a NEW title block, sized to suit an A3 sheet and getting everything set up in that dwg before saving it as your template.

This means that every time you create a new dwg with the template, everything is set up and all you do is start drawing.

I would suggest that wherever possible, you have the title block and draw schematics in model space and only use a paperspace title block for panel layouts, general arrangements and other dwgs that require things drawn to scale. Be aware that ACADE is not really set up to take advantage of more than one paperspace sheet.

As for ladder orientation, that is up to you. I prefer the vertical ladder as that is how us English readers are taught to read (left to right, moving down) and seems more natural to me to read a ladder drawing that way. It is also the way I was taught to program PLC's in a graphical environment.

Regards Brad

[AmandaV1]

Hey thanks so much for your responses. I will definitely be setting up another titleblock, this time with correct scales.

Brad, is the AS2 library ok for A3 drawings? Or will I have to scale it with the Modify Symbol Library Utility?

How would I go about changing my default library to AS2? Do I need to reinstall Autocad?

Thanks,

Amanda

[dougmcalexander]

Brad may be away, so I will answer for you.  The AS2 library shoud fit the A3 nicely.  If you want the text to be larger, you can change it using Project-wide utilities, after you finish the drawings.  To permanently change the attribute text height, you can use the Modify Symbol Library utility.  Be sure to make a backup of the AS2 folder before using this utility.  It will take 2-4 hours to process, depending upon the speed of our computer.  It opens every symbol file, processes the desired changes, and saves the file.  There are over 3,330 symbols.

To load the AS library, go to Windows Control Panel>Programs and Features.  Find AutoCAD Electrical in the list and select it.  Click the Uninstall/Change option at the top of this dialog.  Once AutoCAD Electrical setup loads, choose "Add or Remove Features".  The first screen allows you to add or delete manufaturer part number data. Click Next and you will see a list of available symbol libraries.  If they are checked but grayed out it means they are already installed.  Check the box for AS and click Next.  AS is the name of the Australian AS-2000 standard symbol set.

Note: Never use the IEEE library.  The symbol appearance and default tag letters are not correct.  But even if they were correct, this is not an appropriate set of symbols for industrial controls diagrams.  It is used in the U.S. for circuit board schematics.

[Icemanau]

The AS2 library is scaled to suit A3/A4 dwgs.

If you need to do an A2/A1/A0 dwg you would need to scale the symbols up.

If most of your dwgs are on A3 with only the occasional A2 or larger, then I would copy the AS2 directory to an AS4 directory and scale the AS4.

To make the library the default symbol set, you change the path to point to the AS2 directory in the Project Properties. See the attachment for clarification.

This means that if a project requires the use of a different library, that you can use the correct one without actually changing ACADE settings.

You can also change the Menu file, but as the block names are the same, you don't really have to. I still use the IEC icon menu with no problems when using the AS2 blocks.

Regards Brad

[AmandaV1]

Thanks Brad.

Regarding your titleblock suggestion, are you recommending that I have the actual titleblock in model space too? Not paperspace? Why is this?

Thanks again for your help.

Amanda

[Icemanau]

ACADE is designed to primarily use model space. Paperspace was not considered to be important when doing schematics.

All of my schematics are in model space along with their title blocks. This means that there are no scaling problems when viewing the schematic.

If you draw a large schematic using blocks sized to suit A3 paper and then use a viewport to see it all, then you will have problems reading the schematic. Using model space with the title block inserted there, gives you boundries and keeps everything readable.

The one and only time I have done schematics in paperspace was when a client demanded it. Those dwgs in particular were not true schematics but more engineering diagrams that their electricians had to work with. From a simple 2 page set, it went to a 15 page set with each protection relay drawn out on it's own sheet and linked to each other using source/destinations arrows.

The only time I use paperspace is when I do a board GA or panel layout.

As I do the GA's and board layouts at a 1:1 scale, I size the viewport to show the entire view and have the scale noted as NTS.

Regards Brad

[sonny3g]

Iceman, I used to do all of my schematics, borders and such in model space too.  Once I got used to (a new job forced me to) doing just my border in paperspace and all my schematics, panel layouts and BOM's in model space I have not looked back.  It works for me, but I can also see doing it all in model space too.