Form-C contact problem

[Slonk]

Our company has just upgraded to ACE2007 & we noticed that the pin numbers on Form-C contacts are flipped even though the pin list is correct. It is very important that the polarity of the contacts are correct.

Is this a bug in ACE2007? & if so is there a solution?

[Peter_KSBE]

Maybe take a look at the form-C contact drawing. Could be that the attributes are numbered wrong.

[Slonk]

Hi Peter

I checked the symbol drawing & its fine. The problem seems to be in the insert component dialog, I insert the contact & pick the parent coil which is a Potter Brumfield relay, pin 1 of the contact should be 7 & pin 2 should be 4 which the pin list has. ACE2007 populates pin 1 with 4 & pin 2 with 7 which is incorrect. This was not a problem with ACE2006.
I could make a new symbol with TERM01 & TERM02 attributes swapped or maybe modify the pin list.
Does any one else have this problem?

Thanks
Simon

[dougmcalexander]

I'm using ACE 2007 with Omron MY2 and MY4 series Form-C contacts. The pins populate correctly using the built-in symbols. If you have your own Form-C contact symbol be sure that the CONTACT attribute value is set to NCNO. This affects the pin arrangement.

[Anonymous]

hi

form C pin list order is form c, com, no, nc,

if u have No=1,3 and NC 1,4, then pinlist order will be 3,1,3,4

and now u place the coil and then NO cotnact. Now wen u place the NC contact, choose "lizst" button to see unused form C contacts, then choose "NC Only -1,4" its easy

I did it for Omron . SQD type relays

hope this helps u

Sathya

[snickerson]

I too have found that the problem exists. I just did a test with AE2006 and the common value was placed in Pin1 and NO was placed in Pin 2. Using AE2007 with the same relay part number the NO value was placed in Pin 1 and the common in Pin 2. It should be noted that for the Form C contacts I am using individual NO and NC (Hcr21 & Hcr22) to create the form C.

[Anonymous]

Hi,
Can you email me a sample dwg showing this problem?
Thanks,
Nate Holt.
nate.holt@autodesk.com

wrote in message news:5339825@discussion.autodesk.com...
I too have found that the problem exists. I just did a test with AE2006 and
the common value was placed in Pin1 and NO was placed in Pin 2. Using
AE2007 with the same relay part number the NO value was placed in Pin 1 and
the common in Pin 2. It should be noted that for the Form C contacts I am
using individual NO and NC (Hcr21 & Hcr22) to create the form C.

[Anonymous]

You can try this test utility. Use it for dwgs you've created with AutoCAD
Electrical 2007 using JIC/JIC125 libraries where it seems to show the form-c
pin assignments swapped.

This utility will process dwgs and check the pin assignments on Form-C
contacts. If it detects that the common is on TERM02 of the component, it
will auto-swap the pins.

Feel free to adjust the utility. It is just a simple AutoLisp function. You
can batch run it across a project set, if you'd like. You'll need to set up
a small script and then use the AutoCAD Electrical's project-wide utils
function. To run on the active drawing, make sure the utility is APPLOADed
and type FORM_C_PINS [Enter] at the command line.

Let me know if this doesn't seem to work or if this is not an adequate temp
work-around for this issue.

Thanks!

Nate.

"Nate Holt (Autodesk)" wrote in message
news:5340318@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi,
Can you email me a sample dwg showing this problem?
Thanks,
Nate Holt.
nate.holt@autodesk.com

wrote in message news:5339825@discussion.autodesk.com...
I too have found that the problem exists. I just did a test with AE2006 and
the common value was placed in Pin1 and NO was placed in Pin 2. Using
AE2007 with the same relay part number the NO value was placed in Pin 1 and
the common in Pin 2. It should be noted that for the Form C contacts I am
using individual NO and NC (Hcr21 & Hcr22) to create the form C.

[Slonk]

Hi Nate,

The utility works fine, we have added it to our custom toolbars.

Thanks for your help
Simon

[jmburge]

This is probably too late but you might want to name your symbol HCR23...the 2 standing for child and the 3 standing for form-c...the IEC library symbol is named this way so I followed suit and never had a problem with the pin list. I run ACADE 2007 as well.

[raider10]

Just upgraded to ACE 2008. The form_c_pins Lisp routine worked fine in 2007 but does not work in 2008. I've noticed that in 2008, the first contact is inserted correctly. When you try to insert the second contact the pins are incorrect. Example: Omron MY2 relay (9com, 5no, 1nc) the normally open will insert correctly with 9 on the left of the contact and 5 on the right, when the normally closed contact is inserted 1 is on the left and 9 on the right of the contact.

I was under the impression that the form c contact problem was going to be fixed in 2008. Is anyone else having this issue.

Thanks in advance.

[dougmcalexander]

There is a problem with the Form-C contact pins in versions 2008 and 2009. Pins 9 and 5 (normally-open) will appear correctly while pins 9 and 1 (normaly-closed) will be reversed. If you insert the notmally-closed pair first they will appear correct and the normally-closed pair will be reversed. Hopefully Autodesk can correct this.

In the attached screen shot you can see what happens when you insert the N.C. first and then the N.O. The N.C. gets pins 9 and 1 as it should. Then when I insert the N.O. and associate it to the same coil, I click List to select the leftover N.O. pins, 9 and 5. But they are inserted backwards. I found that if you insert the N.O. first and the N.C. second the N.C. pins will be reversed. It doesn't matter which you insert first, the common (pin 9) will be on the wrong side of the second contact inserted.

Note: Since it takes two JIC symbols to create a Form-C with AcadE I connect the two commons with a line on a layer named Jumper (color set to megenta) so the potential/wire number carries through and I don't end up with a "component-has-no-wire-connected" error. The layer named jumper will not appear on the wire list.

[dougmcalexander]

Just in case anyone needs these I have created Form-C contacts for the JIC125 library folder (0.125 inch attribute text height) that are the equivalent of the ones in the IEC4 library folder (4mm attribute text height). If you run a library swap from IEC4 to JIC125, these will get inserted as JIC equivalent Form-C contacts. Or you can do that in reverse, switching from JIC125 to IEC4. You can copy these 4 and edit the attribute text height to 0.1 inch and place the copies in the JIC1 folder, if you need the 0.1 inch text height version.

The attached zip file contains HCR23, HCR23R, VCR23, and VCR23R. The names must not be changed in order for this to work. You can insert these by using the Browse button on the Insert Compoent dialog or have fun with the Icon Menu Wizard and add them to the Insert Component menu. Remember that you only need to add an icon trigger for HCR23 and HCR23R (the flipped version). AcadE will pick the vertical version of the symbol automatically if you insert on a vertical wire. Edited by: dougmcalexander on Feb 17, 2009 7:00 PM

[raider10]

There is a lisp routine that you can run to fix this problem. Check out this link to the AutoCad blog that walks you through it.

http://mfgcommunity.autodesk.com/blogs/blog/view/7/form_c_swap/

[dougmcalexander]

Thanks! I know about the lisp routine. But if I am going to have to use manual intervention, I just change the pin assignments when I insert them. There is only a problem when you desire to have the Pin List Database fill in the pin assignments by clicking the list button. But with the actual form-C contact symbols I uploaded the JIC and IEC have reciprocating symbols that work perfectly. This solves the whole problem with no work-around necessary. The IEC library already contains these 4 symbols, HCR23, HCR23R, VCR23, and VCR23R and they work perfectly. They just have the IEC graphical style. The ones I uploaded are an exact equivalent with JIC graphical style. The pins will populate correctly and you can use the Library Swap command and see them swap out perfectly.