ACADE template sizing. 22"x35" for 11"x17"?

[adam-tca]

Hi,

I'm using ACADE 2013.  When I built our title block template, I started with the ACADE template called: "ACAD_ELECTRICAL.dwt"  Recently I noticed that this template is actually ~22" high, basicaly double the size of a Tabloid page...(11x17)  To make sure I wasn't losing my marbles, I checked some of the example drawings that come with ACADE.  They too (on the same title blcok), were ~22"x35".  

So my question is, is this normal? And has Autodesk done this for a reason?  Is everything done in 2:1 and then scaled down or something?  Does anyone have any expereince with this?

There are grumblings within our group that the scaling should be one to one.  But I don't want to have to modify a bunch of stuff to satisfy that.  I would like to maintain as much "stock" as possible within the installation....  If this is industry standard, or there is another reason, such as an engineering decision to do this, that would be a good enough reason not to differ...  I'd just be curious if anyone knew what it was?

Let me know if I can calrrify any further.

Thanks

Adam

[jalger]

Hi Adam,

Its actually setup for a D size drawing 22 x 34.

Most people just print it at B size.

Its just a starting point, most people create their own Templates (and use their own titleblocks).  

You can rescale the Library if you want to, or you can double the scale on your 11x17 drawing (or just leave it).

Its completely up to you.

Most people end up doubling the size since it looks less crowded.

I hope this helps,

James

[adam-tca]

When you say "rescale the library", do you mean manually, or is there functionality to accomplish that?

[jalger · Accepted solution]

Hi  Adam,

There is a tool to do that Called "Modify Symbol Library"

It is in the same location as the Symbol Builder (its part of the dropdown)

It take a while for it run (2-3 hours) and it stops a few times in between.

It updates all the blocks in the library at the same time (I think it has 20 000+ symbols per standard)

Here is a screenshot for it (Its the same location for older version as well)

 I hope this helps,

James

[dougmcalexander]

The original version of the software, back in the early 90s was set up for ANSI D. The symbols are sized for ANSI D. I usually recommend using an ANSI D environment so no symbol scaling is necessary. Then set the template up as "plot to fit" 11x17.

The D size border doesn't require as much scaling up to fit around full scale panel layouts in model space. Software like this works with less hassle in model space.

[jalger]

Reading over my post I did forget to mention that it it was already at the right scale for D size.

Thanks Doug! 

I mentioned most people double the size of the tittle block but should have been more clear... if you have an 11x17 page you can scale it up to 22x34.

As Doug Pointed out its best to stay within the model Environment. 🙂

Regards,

James

[adam-tca]

So the problem as a result of rescaling the library is that now, certain things don't "look right"...  For instance, the wire cross loops.  Before I scaled, when a wire cross lopp was next to a square terminal it was smaller than the terminal...  Now, the wire cross loop looks comically large next to it.  From taking some quick measurements, it looks like the wire loop didn't scale.  I can't scale it manually, because it appears not to be a block.  

So the first question is, can you adjust the wire loop sizes?

2nd, are there any other things that are going to pop up such as that, that I just haven't encountered yet...

3rd. When you say "best to stay in model environment"...  are you implying that it is best to not screw with the scaling, because it causes all kinds of problems?  Like the scaling of wire loops etc?  Would it be better to just leave everything as "stock".

Thanks

Adam

[dougmcalexander]

Modify Symbol Library scales everything by the same proportion. The loops and angled tees are considered features. They are symbols that AutoCAD Electrical inserts as needed, according to your Drawing Settings. If your drawing template is B-size, a scale factor of 0.5 should work perfectly for the JIC or NFPA library folders. The JIC or NFPA symbols will appear to be the same relative size as if they had been inserted into a D-size drawing.

If scaling one of the IEC libraries, the exact scale factor for mm to inches is 0.03937, but I have found a scale factor of 0.024 worked better for ANSI B-size templates. It was small enough for the 3-phase devices to fit nicely across the wires, and it provided more design area. I did rescale the attributes to be sure they were at 0.0625 or larger, so they would meet the ANSI standard for minimum text height.

AutoCAD Electrical, like its many competitors, is not actually intended for use in a paperspace environment. Paperspace is fine for the architectural world, where the drawings are just "dumb" graphics. But intelligent CAD software must manage/track data. Paperspace can cause "quirky" issues with data tracking. Some users have had success putting their title block in paperspace, as reported on this forum, but putting drawing data in paperspace will basically put you into the realm of "your mileage may vary".

The competitor's software that I use, which also runs atop AutoCAD, turns off the ability to even invoke paperspace. In fact, they disable all "vanilla" AutoCAD functions that might cause data management issues. Autodesk chose to keep all "vanilla" AutoCAD functions enabled, so those with legacy drawings would not feel the need to switch to a "vanilla" AutoCAD profile in order to work on old "dumb" drawings.  I have used AutoCAD Electrical since 1997, always in modelspace, and thousands of projects have been completed with great success.

P.S. I do wish Autodesk would consider adding a "Novice" mode that allows only commands that are completely compatible with AutoCAD Electrical.  I would suggest no access to the Home menu tab, paperspace, plain AutoCAD Move, etc., so new users are forced to use only "safe" commands.  I would even recommend forcing Snap to be engaged, and disabling O-snaps while on a schematic drawing.  As a beginner, if you stick with the commands available on the Project, Schematic, Panel, Reports, and Import/Export (From and To Spreadsheet only) tabs, you will be safe.  If you encounter problems using these commands, it may be a workflow issue, or sometimes a bug.  But at least you will know that you didn't break your drawing by using vanilla AutoCAD commands when you shouldn't have done so.  After you have gained some experience and insight into how the software works, you will then know when and how to use some of the vanilla AutoCAD commands to your advantage.