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AcadE 2015 exiting symbol builder

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Message 1 of 17
rhesusminus
788 Views, 16 Replies

AcadE 2015 exiting symbol builder

Hi.

 

Is this only me?

 

When I exit the symbol builder, AcadE activates the Features app tab on the ribbon. Kind of annoying.

 


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
Ctrl Alt El
Please select "Accept Solution" if this post answers your question. 'Likes' won't hurt either. 😉
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Message 2 of 17

What annoys me is that it leaves the original geometry that I used to make the symbol in the way when it asks if I want to insert the new symbol. The old symbol builder removed the graphics I started with to make room for the new symbol to insert. I still prefer WD_SYM_BUILD.

I will check 2015 and see if I can reproduce what you describe.


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




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Message 3 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

does the new symbol buider still have that wonderful feature where if you modify a symbol on a page and at the end it asks you if you want to insert a new version of the symbol it ignores the new version and inserts the old block definition in to the page !!!!!!!!!

 

one of my top 10 anoying features (bugs)

Message 4 of 17

That's not a bug. That is how AutoCAD works to gain efficiency. Rather than spend time copying from a disk drive AutoCAD is programmed to look first in the drawing for the same block name. If found it uses it. Even if the block had one existed in the drawing but was erased, AutoCAD will use it. If the drawing has been purged of unused/erased blocks, then AutoCAD has to load the block from the disk drive. This is how AutoCAD has functioned as far back as I have used it, which was the 80's.

Electrical gives you a tool called Update block, which essentially deletes every instance of the block, purges it out of the drawing file and replaces it with the latest version. It can perform this project wide.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




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Message 5 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

i have to disagree doug

 

in the normal state of things your workig on a project and decide that the symbol you have in the currently open drawing needs modifying so you launch symbol explorer and modify the symbol  then you save the new symbol and then autocad asks you would you like to insert the new symbol into the existing drawing

 

it does not it ues the block definition thats already existing so in my mind thats factuatualy incorrect what acade is doing

 

so either the message is wrong or acade is working incorectley

Message 6 of 17

Well, AutoCAD has also hade the opportunity to REDEFINE a block in the drawing, since the early morning of AutoCAD.

AcadE also have the replace block functionality already made, so it shouldn't be THAT hard to implement a checkbox that says "redefine/replace this block in current drawing", because it IS annoying when you're working with creating new symbols, and you have to tweak it quite a few times before it works exactly as you want it to.

 


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
Ctrl Alt El
Please select "Accept Solution" if this post answers your question. 'Likes' won't hurt either. 😉
Message 7 of 17
dougmcalexander
in reply to: ccad2509

Electrical must work within the framework of AutoCAD. You can disagree all you want. I'm just telling you how it works. There are subroutines that execute during the update symbol operation that make sure attribute values are copied from the project database back into the new version of the symbols.  This could apply to multiple drawings, so there is the project-wide option.  Data is being managed here, not just dumb graphics. The data is unique in each symbol in the form of attribute values and xdata. You can update 50 symbols at once and the new block will be inserted, with all part numbers, tag values, pin assignments, function text, rating values, etc, are. restored from the project scratch database .

 

The same message pops up when you create a new symbol, offering to insert it into the drawing.  But when the symbol already exists in the drawing, AutoCAD rules intervene and use the existing block.  Should the Electrical team write a subroutine that autoexecutes the update block utility in the case of editing an existing block?  Perhaps!  They have to think about all scenarios and compensate.  Maybe the change you made was to a preloaded attribute value.  In that case, the data coming from the database could overwrite your change.  The subroutine must account for this.  I'm confident that they could do it.  But it is not commonplace for us to always have to redo our symbols, so I'm sure this isn't high on the list.  In fact, I've never heard of a complaint about it, probably because the update block utility already exists.  You just have to click on it after you change the block.


If you don't like the way it works, contact Autodesk. I don't have time for it. I'm here to help people learn what the software CAN do, not debate where improvements should be made. I have my own list of those.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 8 of 17
jalger
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi Rhesusminus,

 

Its not just you, but there is a work around so you don't see the issue.

If you use the "Done" Button instead of clicking on "Exit Block editor" you should stop seeing the "Features" tab.

If you finish the symbol using the "Exit Block Editor" Feature it Defaults the last tab in the Ribbon, it just happens to be the Feature apps tab.

 

To fix the Block editing issue, use the save block command prior to reauthoring the block.

It forces a new copy to be generated,

 

In 2014 and older:

The original Block gets "bumped" Usually with an "_<Number_of bumps,starts at 0>" ( i.e <Block name>__0,,<Block name>_ _1,<Block name>_2, etc). The "new" block takes the Block name.

 

In 2015 it takes the new name after the new block is placed in the drawing (and all blocks update to the new version).

 

 

I have to side with Doug, We are not on the Forums to debate why a feature is a certain way, We are simply here to offer advise.

Its up to the User to decide if our advise is helpful, but we are not the programmers, and cannot fix pogramming issues.

 

I hope that this helps,

 

Regards,

 

 

James Alger
(I'm on several hundred posts as "algerj")

Work:
Dell Precision 5530 (Xeon E 2176M)
1tb SSD, 64GB RAM
Nvidia Quadro P2000, Win10
Message 9 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

wow Doug

your in a mood

 

you gone onto write an epic reply ignoring the issue  which is it offers you up the opportunity to insert a new symbol but doesn't do what it says

 

then you wander of and try to justify this issue by trying to tell me that's the way it is

 

no its not its fundamentally wrong either the message is incorrect of AutoCAD isn't working correctly

 

now if the message is incorrect then remove it

 

if they want the feature then they already have the code to correct this (just add in the symbol swap code)

 

each year Autodesk tries to add new features (this year was rubbish) yet there are still issues that have not been addressed or ignored

 

which is not right if they cant get these issues resolved before they add more features you building up a product full of holes

 

yes i do complain as a matter of fact i was in a meeting with some Autodesk reps two weeks ago a dropped a bomb on them regarding six issues that my client wants resolved

 

i had to back them in to a corner to justify the expense on the project  and my client is now fully aware that its not me being awkward its AutoCAD electrical not doing what they expect it to do

 

i will be in a meeting  later this week with these reps to see what they can offer up

 

Message 10 of 17
dougmcalexander
in reply to: ccad2509

I don't usually harass Autodesk about issues where a workable solution exists.  I do send them enhancement ideas from time to time.  In the grand scheme of things, I would rather see them focus on something like making the Item Number Resequence utility actually renumber alphabetically by manufacturer, as stated, rather than by panel  layout drawing order and then alphabetically by manufacturer.  There is no work-around for this except for manually editing the BOM or manually assigning item numbers in the order you want, either of which is time consuming.  But there is a utility for updating a block that has been changed after it was originally inserted.

 

Many of us old-timers don't edit existing blocks with the Symbol Builder anyway.  We simply open the block file, make our changes, save the file and run the Update Block utility. Many of us even build new blocks this way.  Once you know the names of the attributes required, you can build a new block just like you would with plain vanilla AutoCAD.  I often tell my students that they could build symbols with AutoCAD LT, once they know the attributes that AutoCAD Electrical expects to find in the symbols.  The main advantages of using the Symbol Builder is that it serves as a type of wizard to help get the filename and attributes named properly and it allows you to precisely locate the wire connection attribute pairs.  But once you have made a few symbols with Symbol Builder, you know these things; so you can make symbols by copying the file of a symbol that is close to what you need and editing it with plain AutoCAD commands.

 

That said, I have already requested that Symbol Builder offer to update the existing block, in case you used it to edit an existing block.  But I’m not going to harass Autodesk about it.  I would rather them focus on fixing actual issues that have no work-around.  I agree that before new features are added, existing features should be bullet-proof.  I have been beating that drum since the early days of this program.  But no software is perfect.  I understand that resources are limited, just the same as with any company, thus Autodesk must prioritize.  I waited 9 years for one request, the ability to assign an item number to Multiple Catalog entries.  I started requesting this when VIA marketed this program under the name of VIA/Wiring Diagram.  It was finally added in version 2009.  I was told that there was the potential for far reaching negative implications, given the amount of code that could be affected, so they needed to wait until they had ample time to do it correctly.  I have pushed Autodesk for continued improvements related to item numbering.  You have to pick your battles.  They have limited resources.  Don’t sidetrack them with something that you can work around easily by using Update Block.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 11 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

another long as windy responce

 

with the standard sections

 

A) how long your been using acade

B) autodesk doesnt have the resources or money (ha)

c) and advertise your services

 

i will restate my point of view in fewer words

 

1) There are some issues still in acade from when i stated using it (2006)

2) These issues are either being ignored or cant be resolved

3) This is great amunition for competing produts (and i do know engineers/reps from other products who lurck this board)

4) if they cant get a message right what sort of deeper issues are they struggling with ?

5) but rember next release will have another load of features which will have problems that everbody will jump on and forget the previous ones (and to add insult these features would have been running on other products for years) Example phoenix terminal export in 2015 was in eplan 10years ago now writting diretly to inventor thats intresting as eplan can write directly to inventor and has been for 4 years now

 

 

ps had a c&*^%)( day fighting ACADE again!!!!

 

 

 

 

Message 12 of 17
dougmcalexander
in reply to: ccad2509

It seems like you have a serious axe to grind.  Why do you even continue to use software that you hate so much? I'm sure the competitor would welcome your business.  

 

And I don't get paid for my participation on this forum.  I am here to help.  I could reserve my answers for only those who attend my training, but I don't. Sure, I'm going to mention my training and implementation support.  That's how I can afford to be here answering questions for free.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 13 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

Interesting response

 

No I don’t grind axes I just want a better product if you don’t complain how are they going to know there’s a problem?

 

I’ll ask you a question Its a straight yes or no answer

 

If you search through this forum you will find multiple problems with the same solution

 

Which is delete/rebuild the scratch database I will be conservative and say 5%

 

So if having to delete the scratch database solves these problems

 

Then the question is

 

Is there a fundamental problem with the scratch database?

 

If the answer is yes then why hasn’t it been addressed?

 

If the answer is no then why there are so many problems solved by deleting the database?

 

If you bother to peak out from behind ACADE and look at what’s out there it’s a scary world competitors are coming out with new and innovative products there are more players in the market and companies are more open to using non Autodesk products

 

If the guys at Autodesk don’t come out with a game changer and start sorting out these issues the future is not bright for ACADE

Message 14 of 17
dougmcalexander
in reply to: ccad2509

I used the competitors as well, long before I started using AutoCAD Electrical. I still use 2 of them for certain projects. They are database-driven. Advantage? For one, drawings don't have to be opened to process a project-wide update. But in reality the drawings aren't always updated in real time either. The updates are written to the drawings the next time they are opened. I have been working with one of my customers on a big project at their facility, using a competitive software. If the database gets corrupted before the drawings are opened again, the changes don't get written to the drawings. We get around this by plotting to a file at the end of each day.

Another of the database-driven programs doesn't store anything but markers in the drawings.  When you open a page it is actually created on the fly based on the information in the database. If this database gets corrupted you lose drawing data. I have had to redraw drawings by looking at a printout. I have had this happen often enough that I keep backups. Some SQL based programs store all data for all projects in the SQL database, thus if the database becomes corrupt you could lose not just your current project but all, or parts of all, projects you ever created. 


There is a perception of speed with the database-driven approach. But the reality is that project wide changes are not always executed in real time. They are stored for later execution, similar to adding a change to AutoCAD Electrical's task list for later execution, rather than allowing it to perform a real-time update.

So why AutoCAD Electrical? All data is stored in the drawings. The database is only a reflection of the drawings. It is called a scratch database because it is akin to a memo pad that AutoCAD Electrical writes to and reads from for its own internal operations.  It can be deleted anytime without losing project data. The software taps into this database when it needs to extract current project data for some operation. This is much quicker than opening and interrogating each drawing, and it avoids the volatility of having the database be the main storage location for all the project data. The data is very well protected (stored in the drawings). The disadvantage is that project-wide updates may have to be added to the task list for later execution if someone else has a drawing from the project open. Another disadvantage is that the database can be out of sync with the drawings if edits haven't yet been saved. It gets really complicated if many drawings from the same project are open and have changes that aren't yet saved; even more complicated if multiple drawings from the same project are opened by multiple designers at the same time. Sometimes the database gets corrupted. AEREBUILDDB can force the update when the drawings haven't yet been saved, but it cannot reliably repair a corrupt database. Deleting the database forces the software to build a fresh new database from the drawings.

AutoCAD Electrical is the only drawing-driven software of its type. Many of us who have used database-driven programs prefer the robustness of AutoCAD Electrical and we would prefer that it continue to be drawing-driven. For those who prefer database-driven, you have around a dozen choices of software available to you.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 15 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: dougmcalexander

I won’t say interesting response but I will say not an unexpected response

So let’s take a few comments

“I used the competitors as well, long before I started using AutoCAD Electrical.”

Does this mean you’re stopped looking at what’s being developed out there and are you basing your knowledge on what other products did a long time ago?

I have come across this argument plenty of times it seems to be the ACADE standard defence

When I used product x 5 years ago it did not do this

Why don’t you try comparing like for like

So as designers/engineers what are we actually doing?

We are producing either paper documents or PDF’s to be used to build/install/test/maintain things with electrical content

Who says that the software you use to create this PDF must be in DWG format?

That’s a very important question nowadays companies are quite happy to accept PDF’S as the deliverable documentation

The general rule is if you want DWG files to be supplied then you pay extra for the privilege

There are products out there now that tie the PLC data to a P+ID and the Electrical /Mechanical design running off a single SQL database a top down approach with a single database controlling everything

A scary thought here is one of those products is owned by Siemens who can now offer a complete design in there own hardware /software and supply all there design documentation in there own CAD orientated software

How long is it going to be before the likes of Rockwell/Group Schneider/Emerson/Yokogawa follow suite?

Some very big players in electrical automation products are moving into areas traditionally covered by Autodesk products

Do you see what’s happening here the market is starting to fragment with green field sites having the option of fully integrated life cycle documentation supplied by the hardware vendor’s proprietary software.

The bottom end of the market is full of nimble VFM products that yes may not do all what ACADE does but that’s the trade off for the needs of a smaller company on a budget

Some of these cad companies come out with dam good ideas

A product that I have used has a symbol explorer where by if you have paid your subscription when you insert a symbol there is an extra button marked internet which links directly to the cad vendors own servers and offers up new symbols and product data which is being updated on a regular basis

“Some SQL based programs store all data for all projects in the SQL database, thus if the database becomes corrupt you could lose not just your current project but all, or parts of all, projects you ever created.”

You’re trying to put forward an argument that SQL corrupts and is unstable therefore no good for linking Cad drawings together a few points here

1)      The whole world runs on SQL from anything that connects to a computer or has a computer in it which works perfectly ok by implication you’re saying the DWG format isn’t good enough to comply with everybody else in the known world

2)      There are Electrical Engineering design software that runs on pure SQL and generates DWG drawings for people who live in the last century

Question is this the future when drawing boards were superseded by CAD programmes and the DWG format is the drawing board?      

 

“So why AutoCAD Electrical?”

This long windy statement has multiple reasons why the scratch database has issues so why can’t Autodesk address these problems!!!!! (Thanks your confirmed the elephant in the room)

It also constantly tries to justify why you should not use a database driven software which is fundamentally the opposite too what the rest of the world is working towards

With the catch all things will be ok if you delete the database and start again

AutoCAD Electrical is the only drawing-driven software of its type.

Well what can I say are you sure you want to make this claim

   

Message 16 of 17
jalger
in reply to: ccad2509

(shaking my head at this, and wondering why I'm bothering to break up this wonderful fight.... ***COUGH***AHEM ...Discussion)

 

OK, well aside from saying this sort of argument really doesn't belong on the forums.

I have several comments:

 

"Why don’t you try comparing like for like"

 

I have and I still find that AutoCAD Electrical with all of its faults is still the better program.

And if you try saying the other companies don't have issues you're crazy!

How about you compare issues to like issues... then do a really comparison

 

"Who says that the software you use to create this PDF must be in DWG format?"

 

No one does go ahead and buy Full blown Adobe for around $800. you will have to do each page one at a time.

You could also get bluebeam. (it might help too)

 

But if your trying to publish a project you might want to start in a drawing.

Maybe you prefer using MS Viso for your Electrical work?

 

 

"There are products out there now that tie the PLC data to a P+ID and the Electrical /Mechanical design running off a single SQL database a top down approach with a single database controlling everything"

 

Really ONE product that does everything, sure name it for me. 

Most of the competitor have tie ins and oddly enough they try to mimic the ACADE Structure. (it means they can't be doing things that wrong)

(I can do it all in Regular AutoCAD, minus the SQL database, unless i use the vault Smiley Happy )

 

"The bottom end of the market is full of nimble VFM products that yes may not do all what ACADE does but that’s the trade off for the needs of a smaller company on a budget"

 

If you feel like you need more bang for your buck, get the product design suite (then use Inventor for the cable and harness design).

 

"A product that I have used has a symbol explorer where by if you have paid your subscription when you insert a symbol there is an extra button marked internet which links directly to the cad vendors own servers and offers up new symbols and product data which is being updated on a regular basis"



There are over 2 million entries in the database and roughly 150,000 sysmbol components spread arcoss multiple libraries.

how many of the competitors can say that?

 

 

You also Stated you dropped a bomb on the guys at autodesk.

 

Thats not the way to solve the issues, stop for a second, and imagine you're in their shoes.

If your client blew up at you are you going to go out of your way to help him?

I'm sure at 4:00pm on a friday you would would say "naw i don;t really need to talk to that client their a jerk".

You would let the phone ring and probably not go out of your way to help them.

 

Now if the same client calmly brought up a few issues, made a few suggestions.

They call at 4:00pm on friday your going to pick up the phone and help them.

You are FAR more likely to go out of your way to help the cleint (maybe even ask for Beta versions of service packs for clients)

 

AutoCAD Electrical is not the only Drawing Driven Product for Electrical.

Each of the programs have strengths and weaknesses, it all depends on what your using the product for.

 

If you told me you were using ACADE to make a Circuit Board I'd smack you, Gibbs style (Back of the head).

If your using it for Industrial Machinery (which is what it was designed for) then your good.

If your using it for a Building I'd ask you may your not using MEP (Architural Side: Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing).

 

lets not Forget it is BUILT ON TOP OF AutoCAD, so anything you can do in regular AutoCAD you can do in ACADE.

 

You Also Stated

 

"This long windy statement has multiple reasons why the scratch database has issues so why can’t Autodesk address these problems!!!!! (Thanks your confirmed the elephant in the room)

It also constantly tries to justify why you should not use a database driven software which is fundamentally the opposite too what the rest of the world is working towards, With the catch all things will be ok if you delete the database and start again"

 

Most of the Scratch database issues are user Profile realted issues (or Registry Related issues), Maybe your hate should be directed at Microsoft for making windows or MS Access.

 

Anyone who has used MS Access knows that Access is a a little unstable. And Although SQL is really Nice, the licensing is more expensive (meaning ACADE would cost more), and the tools for editing a SQL Database are harder to program. (Its Easy to make it hard, but hard to make it easy) 

 

ccad2509,  I'm not trying to erk you, I'm just pointing out that your arguements have holes too.

So before I get 8 other e-mails on a thread that has a question (which by the way is lost in the mix of the Arguement.)

Please Stop. 

 

By all means exchange e-mails and carry on the fight outside of the forum, but if i get an e-mail at 2am again about this crazy issue I MIGHT GO CRAZY!

 

 

James

James Alger
(I'm on several hundred posts as "algerj")

Work:
Dell Precision 5530 (Xeon E 2176M)
1tb SSD, 64GB RAM
Nvidia Quadro P2000, Win10
Message 17 of 17
ccad2509
in reply to: jalger

one comment James then i will talk direct

 

Really ONE product that does everything, sure name it for me. 

Most of the competitor have tie ins and oddly enough they try to mimic the ACADE Structure. (it means they can't be doing things that wrong)

(I can do it all in Regular AutoCAD, minus the SQL database, unless i use the vault :smileyhappy: )

 

ok the scarey one  Siemens Cosmos

 

the one that constantly beats ACADE on all fronts in europe  EPLAN as part of the product portfolio it has Cable and harness /3 panel design its propriatry 3D app (built on Open cascade) document management fluids pnematics and loops  as part of its own sql database

 

 

Aveva electrical which bolts into AVEVA pdms system another top down approach one company doing it all

 

and a little guy  WSCAD

 

version 6 has a single database that links floor plans to all the usual electrical funtionality

 

 

PS its not 2am here

 

 

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