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AcadE 2010 and default tag in IEC symbols

18 REPLIES 18
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Message 1 of 19
rhesusminus
1799 Views, 18 Replies

AcadE 2010 and default tag in IEC symbols

Hi there.

In AutoCAD 2010, when using the IEC2 symbols, the Motor Starters gets the letter Q in the tag instead of K.
"Bug"?

THL

Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
Ctrl Alt El
Please select "Accept Solution" if this post answers your question. 'Likes' won't hurt either. 😉
18 REPLIES 18
Message 2 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: rhesusminus


This was modified to match the
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">IEC
61346-2 standard.


style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">
 


style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Pat
Murnen


style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
Hi
there. In AutoCAD 2010, when using the IEC2 symbols, the Motor Starters gets
the letter Q in the tag instead of K. "Bug"? THL
Message 3 of 19
mako68
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi,

This is something which is not documented in Acade 2010 Help ("What's new"...)...?
We have some customers who have made some modifications to their block librariers and stll want to use those.

Is there some document available including all the updates and new features included in ACADE 2010?
Message 4 of 19
milesn
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi,
This is actually incorrect information. The IEC standard has been misinterpreted by Autodesk. Q is for protection devices and the article that Autodesk mention relates to manual motor starters i.e the protection devices and NOT contactors. Contactors should still be referenced with K. This has been reported as a bug in the sofware.

Cheers

Miles Nicholson
Aceri Distribution
Message 5 of 19
rhesusminus
in reply to: rhesusminus

Well... Pat is actually right.

The IEC61346 (that "replaces" IEC750) actually says that contactors now should get the "Q".
Also, the standard says that lamps should no longer be "H", but "P", and PLC's should now be "K".

Only problem here is.. "nobody" has started to use the new standard yet, so there will be some support calls about this when people start to install AcadE 2010.

THL

Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
Ctrl Alt El
Please select "Accept Solution" if this post answers your question. 'Likes' won't hurt either. 😉
Message 6 of 19
milesn
in reply to: rhesusminus

I apologise, 2010 is indeed correct. The reference designator for contactors is now Q! Autodesk are just ahead of everyone on this.

Please see the attached image file.

Kind regards

Miles
Message 7 of 19

Hi Guys! I am partially responsible for the change. I informed Autodesk that they were still using the DIN designations that fed into the IEC but were eventually replaced by 61346-2.

The truth is that it is easier to leave the DIN designations and use the wd_fam.dat method to modify to meet 61346-2. The reason is because 61346-2 consolidated the categories based upon physical properties, which places things like heaters and lamps into the same category. This consolidation can present a problem for tag conversions though. It is easy to convert the many to the few, but hard to convert the few to the many. For example, it is easy to convert JIC to IEC since tags like PB, TS, SS, or LS all become an S in DIN and IEC. Fortunately when we use the AcadE library swap and a subsequent project-wide retag to go from IEC to JIC the default tag in the JIC symbol takes care of converting the S back to the appropriate JIC equivalent. I've used this many times the other way where the customer wants DIN/IEC symbols but doesn't mind keeping the tag the same. For example a machine designed and built in the U.S. to JIC standards could be shipped to Europe with familiar symbol shapes but retain the JIC tags since that is how the device is physically labeled in the panel. That is why I am glad that the library swap feature doesn't automatically retag, but allows me to decide to retag or not. I think AcadE is the best in its class when it comes to symbol conversions from one standard to another.

Tip: I renamed the IEC2 and IEC4 folders to DIN2 and DIN4 and I still use those if I need the old tags. But officially Autodesk is providing us with the most up-to-date tags in version 2010. Incidentally you can use either E or P for a lamp. The P is generic for a signal device, while the E indicates that it converts electrical current into heat and/or light. I guess I would think of E for a light bulb in a building while a P would be an indicator lamp on a control panel.

I personally prefer the old DIN designations but the IEC did not consult me (tongue in cheek).

The wd_fam.dat file is a simple text file that you create and place inside the project folder. The syntax is as follows:

old,new

For example what if you wanted to use JIC symbols but with IEC tags. Create a wd_fam.dat file that looks something like the following and AcadE will override the default tag designation in the symbol's TAG1 attribute:

CR,K
SS,S
TS,S
LS,S
PB,S
LT,P (or E if you prefer)
etc. Edited by: dougmcalexander on May 22, 2009 4:11 AM


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 8 of 19
evanj666
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi there dougmcalexander

I am trying to get the wd_fam.dat override file to work but the component tags are not updating.
I have made the *.dat file and is saved in the Support\User folder. I have also tried
having the *.dat file in the project folder but to no avail.

Why cant I get this to work...all I need is to change LT tags from H->L and CR tags from K->R
So a simple text doc saved as dat with the following should be needed:
LT,L
CR,R
right???

I am aware that these changes will not reflect the IEC 61346-2 but is what is needed.
Thanks very much Doug and hopefully can get this sorted out.
Laterz
Message 9 of 19

Be sure the file is named wd_fam.dat. Place it inside the project folder. Restart AutoCAD in case you already had it open when you created the file.

If you want to convert H to L and K to R your file should contain these two lines.

H,L
K,R

And you're correct that is does not conform to IEC61346-2. In fact it does not conform to any official standard. L is an inductor in JIC/ANSI/UL while R is a resistor in JIC/ANSI/UL and IEC. And with IEC61346-2 R is now also an inductor. I don't like IEC61346-2. I prefer the old DIN standard. I liked that there were more functional categories to break things down into. IEC61436-2 is not looking at circuit function as much as it is based upon the physics of the device. I prefer to designate according to circuit function. I wish the IEC would rethink that. I also don't like the new colors for L1, L2, and L3. I agree with my Australian friends. Brown, Black, and Grey are too close in shade. When you are looking inside a panel in low-light conditions it would be easy to misinterpret. I like the color code I saw Australia best. It is based upon the old British standard of Red, Yellow, and Blue but Yellow has been changed to White. See below:

L1=Red
L2=White
L3=Blue

I wish the IEC would reconsider the phase colors as well, or just use all black. Edited by: dougmcalexander on Jul 28, 2009 5:56 PM


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 10 of 19
Anonymous
in reply to: rhesusminus

Australia used to use the Red, Yellow, Blue phase colours up until the
1980's. The Yellow was phased out in favour of white and the Earth colour
was changed from plain green to green/yellow.
Even back then the European phase colours were strange. They were Brown,
Blue and Black. Considering that they also used Brown and Blue for their
single phase leads, it got confusing at times.

As for the tagging of components by their physics, What are they smoking and
can we get some...

I tag components by function and disregard the standards. When you look at
it, just about anything can be classed as a resistor (going by the physics
at least). Heaters and lights are both resistance devices with specific
characteristics and manufacturing requirements.

Regards Brad

wrote in message news:6226361@discussion.autodesk.com...
Be sure the file is named wd_fam.dat. Place it inside the project folder.
Restart AutoCAD in case you already had it open when you created the file.

If you want to convert H to L and K to R your file should contain these two
lines.

H,L
K,R

And you're correct that is does not conform to IEC61346-2. In fact it does
not conform to any official standard. L is an inductor in JIC/ANSI/UL while
R is a resistor in JIC/ANSI/UL and IEC. And with IEC61346-2 R is now also
an inductor. I don't like IEC61346-2. I prefer the old DIN standard. I
liked that there were more functional categories to break things down into.
IEC61436-2 is not looking at circuit function as much as it is based upon
the physics of the device. I prefer to designate according to circuit
function. I wish the IEC would rethink that. I also don't like the new
colors for L1, L2, and L3. I agree with my Australian friends. Brown,
Black, and Grey are too close in shade. When you are looking inside a panel
in low-light conditions it would be easy to misinterpret. I like the color
code I saw Australia best. It is based upon the old British standard of
Red, Yellow, and Blue but Yellow has been changed to White. See below:

L1=Red
L2=White
L3=Blue

I wish the IEC would reconsider the phase colors as well, or just use all
black.

Edited by: dougmcalexander on Jul 28, 2009 5:56 PM
Message 11 of 19
evanj666
in reply to: rhesusminus

So changing the wd_fam.dat file to contain K,R and H,L works just fine,
only this overrides all components with tags K and H which is great
but is not what is ultimately required.

What is required is a way to override specific component tags, for example:
Relay component to recieve tag R,
Timer component to recieve tag T,
and Contactor component to remain tag K.

The K,R method overrides all of the above componets tags to become R.
Is there any way to achieve this specific tagging?

Your help is highly appreciated
Message 12 of 19

What you want is beyond the scope of the wd_fam.dat. The wd_fam.dat, like much of the automation in AcadE, assumes some industry standard. It can allow you to insert from the JIC library but tag as IEC, for example. But if you have application specific tagging that falls outside of official standards, you are on your own. You could edit each symbol that you use and change the TAG1 attribute's default value. Open up HCR1 and VCR1 and set their default to R. Open up HMS1 and VMS1 and change the TAG1 default to K. Open up HTD1N and VTD1N and change the TAG1 default to T.

I'm curious what country you work in? K is common for a control relay in Europe. I have seen it used for contactors as well, instead of Q. But T is usually a transformer and R is a resistor. How will you tag transformers and resistors? Do your customers accept this sort of tagging?


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 13 of 19
evanj666
in reply to: rhesusminus

I work in South Africa, and our clients havn't mentioned this as a problem.

I found the IEC 61346-2.pdf from a previous discussion entitled "Re: best practices for IEC" found @:
http://discussion.autodesk.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=6162520
Do u perhaps a more current version of this document that you would be willing to share, as the one uploaded has no information about tag H.

I have spoken to my superior and we might stop editing our tags, and simply use the default IEC component tags that AcadE uses, thereby conforming to some international standard.
At the moment we use a simple technique of naming, literally using the first letter or two of the component eg:
relays - R; resistors - R; timers - T; contactors - K; fuses - F; circuit breakers - CB; transformers - TR; motor starters - Q; switches - S; and disconnects - ISO.
This is not a concrete system and can become ambiguous as you pointed out with relays and resistors.

Many thanks
Message 14 of 19

Wow! You have a mixture of JIC, IEC, and custom tags. I would highly suggest a new direction. Approximately 50 countries have adopted IEC so I would suggest that is a good direction if you have the opportunity. If you are shipping your products globally the IEC is definitely the way to go. Some in the U.S. have already adopted the IEC standards without being forced to. I have used DIN since 1988 when I worked for a company from Germany, and since the late 1990s I have designed to the IEC standard. I teach AutoCAD Electrical in both JIC and IEC formats so I have seen both sides in depth.

IEC61346-2 is dated 2000. It took a while for Autodesk to catch up but they are still ahead of most of us. In fact much of Europe hasn't even caught on yet and it was their idea. If you are using the IEC2 or IEC4 library from version 2010, you pretty much have IEC61346-2 tags. The IEC2 and IEC4 libraries in previous versions used the old IEC tagging format, which came from the DIN standard. The Germans played a big role in the IEC standards early on. I wish they had stood their ground on the tagging. I prefer the DIN standard for tagging.

The following link from Moeller is a great resource that gives the conversion from old to new in a table:

http://www.wiringmanual.com/norm002.html


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 15 of 19

My company has just started using Acad-e in its 2010 release. I have still found some non-IEC61346 designations in the iec2 & iec4 libraries. Here is what I set up for the wd_fam file. My company subscibes to these IEC standards, so I got it from the latest copy. The paranthetical info is NOT part of the file. Just my notes to you:

H,E (H is no longer used) (Lamps)
N,K (N is no longer used)
L,R (L is no longer used) (Inductor)
V,R (Rectifiers now "R")
Z,V (Z is no longer used) (Filters)
Y,K (Y is no longer used) (Valves)
D,R (D not a valid designation) (Diodes - Old JIC)
TC,S (TC not a valid designation - old JIC for Thermocouple)
RECEPT,X (RECEPT not a valid designation - even in JIC. I think "X" is right)
GND,F (GND not a valid designation. Old JIC. I think "F" is right)
PLC,K (PLC not a valid designation. Old JIC)

I'm "pretty" sure I got it right, but then I did't write the standard either... 😉
Interesting to note the "D", "TC", "RECEPT" and "PLC" right out of the old but immortal JIC non-standard.

Hope this helps!
Scott Gensemer
Message 16 of 19
gcarego
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hello
Is it possible to have three or for standards of symbols instaled at the same time and switchable from one standard to another.. I have as default the IEC symbols installed but I would also like to have installed all the other standards and shift from one to the other either through a drop down menu or from a list which i can choose as and when required.

Regards
Message 17 of 19

Yes, I have all library folders installed. I use the Library Swap to switch the entire project from one set of symbols to the other. This is one of the exercises I cover in training. I teach IEC, JIC, and AS. Be sure to select the proper scale factor when executing the library swap. 25.4 if switching from IEC to JIC and 0.03937 when switching from JIC to IEC.


Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 18 of 19
elprim
in reply to: rhesusminus

Need help with wd_fam.dat

 

I have added the file to project directory, but won't work.

I have tray with inserting new symbol and then with PROJECT/UPDATE-RETAG/component retag

As a new user of ACE11, I'm studying with old projects and there are old TAGs.

For first I will change tag from motor starter (MS from Q to K).

 

 

Regards, Vito

Kind regards, Vito
Message 19 of 19
elprim
in reply to: elprim

If I write

Q, K - this is working, but I will only one grup to change

 

MS, K - this won't work and I get default Q

 

Regards, Vito

Kind regards, Vito

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