AutoCAD Civil 3D - Stormwater

AutoCAD Civil 3D - Stormwater

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Valued Mentor
fcernst
Posts: 1,104
Registered: ‎01-07-2011
Message 1 of 6 (1,075 Views)

Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

1075 Views, 5 Replies
12-06-2012 10:33 AM

This is not correct in the SSA help. The basin Width drains to the outlet channel.

 

The Width should be parallel to the outlet channel. The Length should be the distance down to the outlet channel.

 

 

Capture.JPG

Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2015
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Employee
Matt.Anderson
Posts: 2,909
Registered: ‎05-13-2005
Message 2 of 6 (1,041 Views)

Re: Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

01-08-2013 02:41 PM in reply to: fcernst

Fred -

 

This image is updated vestiage of the old SWMM 4 runoff block "idealized subcatchmetn-gutter arrangement illustrating subcatchment width" to which the 2 * subbasin lenght = width.

 

The goal of the image is to make clear that Area divided by Width is subbasin lenght for Tc.

 

The only thing I might change would be twist flow arrows to flow less perpendicular to channel.

 

 

Matthew Anderson, PE
Product Manager
Valued Mentor
fcernst
Posts: 1,104
Registered: ‎01-07-2011
Message 3 of 6 (1,037 Views)

Re: Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

01-08-2013 03:34 PM in reply to: Matt.Anderson

 

No, you're making the mistake in that diagram of including the gutter as a component of the idealized subcatchment runoff calculation parameters. Below is what you should be using.

 

An initial estimate of the characteristic width is given by the subcatchment area divided by the average maximum overland flow length. The maximum overland flow length is the length of the flow path from the the furthest drainage point of the subcatchment before the flow becomes channelized.

 

The idealized subcatchment in SWMM is simply a non-linear reservoir model.

 

 

 

 

Capture.JPG

Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2015
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Employee
Matt.Anderson
Posts: 2,909
Registered: ‎05-13-2005
Message 4 of 6 (1,024 Views)

Re: Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

01-09-2013 07:20 AM in reply to: fcernst

The goal was not to make it "idealized" but rather to provide how the software "views" the subbasin in Figure 9.4.

 

The source of the Figure 9.3 in the SSA and original StormNET manuals comes from this image which is the  SWMM 4 runoff block section. 

 

SWMM4.png

Reading further In the SSA help, following Figure 9.3,  the help file shows and discusses Figure 9.4 using an irregular basin.  It then explains:

 

In order to develop this equivalent rectangular subbasin, these methods use an

equivalent (or sometimes called characteristic) width of the assumed

rectangular subbasin in order to internally compute the overland flow path

and the corresponding time of concentration. An initial estimate of the

characteristic width is given by the subbasin area divided by the average

maximum overland flow length, as shown in the following figure.

 

<Figure 9.4>

 

Using the method as described in Figure 9.4 to compute an equivalent width,

the software then develops a rectangular subbasin in which overland flow

contributions from both pervious and impervious areas are idealized as

running down-slope off the subbasin, as shown in Figure 9.3, to the subbasin

outlet.

The maximum overland flow length is the length of the flow path from the

inlet to the furthest drainage point (sometimes called a concentration point or

spill point ) of the subbasin. Maximum lengths from several different possible

flow paths should be averaged. These paths should reflect slow flow, such as

over pervious surfaces, more than rapid flow over pavement, for example.

 

 

WIth both images, together with the narrative following, they properly describe Width and Lenght and the role of Area plays in establishing Lenght for an overall area.   In the figure you provided, you have two subbasins.

 

Should the order of the image be swapped for clarity? Maybe...  Should the "gutter" portion of the ground be removed for clarify making the two sides a simple fold to avoid the appearance of "channelized" flow rather than just make it appear as the cocentration point ...? Probably in light of Figure 9.4... 

 

I think what you are expecting is something that represents the single flow plane like the following which is in the original BOSS StormNET Techincal Reference with the original source being the EPA SWMM manual image.

 

 

TechRef.png

 

I have no problem having the Equivalent Width descriptions re-arranged for clarity. 

 

Matthew Anderson, PE
Product Manager
Employee
Matt.Anderson
Posts: 2,909
Registered: ‎05-13-2005
Message 5 of 6 (1,021 Views)

Re: Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

01-09-2013 07:27 AM in reply to: Matt.Anderson

Old Dominion has the older version of the SWMM 4 manual:

 

Here are the figures sources:

http://eng.odu.edu/cee/resources/model/mbin/swmm/swmm_7.pdf

 

This is the source of the SSA Figure 9.4:

 

Irregular.png

Matthew Anderson, PE
Product Manager
Valued Mentor
fcernst
Posts: 1,104
Registered: ‎01-07-2011
Message 6 of 6 (1,011 Views)

Re: Incorrect EPA SWMM basin Width and Length in SSA

01-09-2013 07:47 PM in reply to: Matt.Anderson

Hey Matt,

 

I like this one from your reference for demonstrating the SWMM flow width parameter.... A, B and C are good... and D&E are unacceptable (channelization would occur prior to these lengths).

 

I think the second image, of section view, I show from SWMM 5 is very important to grasp for the subcatchment computation conceptualization... 

 

Capture.JPG

 

 

 

ggCapture2.JPG

Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2015
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
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