Why I need a User defined North Rotation

[fgolaub]

I have read all the postings regarding the option of defining a basepoint and north rotation that was available in LDDT, and I was one of those people that had to use this function.
Why, because the drawing that I work with is of a canal system that uses the centreline of the canal for importing survey data in Point, Northing, Easting, Description format, relative to this centreline. In LDDT this data was imported using No Coordinate System.
In the drawing the World UCS has been rotated such that Y is pointing to the right and X is pointing down. This is done solely to make the drawing easier to read since the canal runs North to South. Also, the model drawing has been created using a coordinate system such that
any given point will have real X and Y coordinates. Because the canal is similar to a road in that it consists of lines, arcs and tangents for the alignment of the CL, Station 0,0 is taken from a tangent point projected from the nearest end of curve point, therefore there are a number of possible 0,0 or basepoints for the survey crew to work with. When the surrvey crew collect data, they choose the relevent basepoint as their Station 0 and then take shots relative to the CL of the canal i.e. Northing being stations along the CL of the canal and easting being east or west of the CL. So far this has worked great in LDDT, but I can't get the points inserted into my drawing correctly using Civil 3D. Whats happening is that the points are being inserted relative to the World 0,0 and therefore are aligned according to the X and Y and 0,0 of autocad, thus my points are totally way out of the site area. (I hope this makes sense).
Is there a way of doing this in Civil 3D. I have tried using a coordinate system (NAD 27 3 deg. MTM) and then trying to transform the points by picking a reference point and angle, but the points are always inserted relative to WCS at Acad 0,0. I've tried defining a UCS, with the basepoint being my Station 0,0 and the angle being relative to the CL that I need, but the points still get inserted at WCS. I would have pulled all my hair out by now if I had any, and I am now at the end of my wits trying to figure this one out. My question also, would be, is there a better way of working with these points. I mean, could I use the alignment of the canal for inserting my point data, or some other method. Please note that at the moment the drawing does not have any alignments set up, but I am willing to try new ideas if they will help me achieve the end result. Otherwise I may just have to switch back to LDDT.

Thanks for any help.

I'm using Civil 3D 2006.

[Anonymous]

By just briefly reading your message here is my answer.

You apparently need a little training on using Paperspace. (Layouts). You
can work in Model space with North UP, then switch to a layout and it is all
turned in the proper direction. OR you can work in Model Space thru the
Layout. Look thru various Tutorials.

Bill

Or ask more.


wrote in message news:5392222@discussion.autodesk.com...
I have read all the postings regarding the option of defining a basepoint
and north rotation that was available in LDDT, and I was one of those people
that had to use this function.
Why, because the drawing that I work with is of a canal system that uses the
centreline of the canal for importing survey data in Point, Northing,
Easting, Description format, relative to this centreline. In LDDT this data
was imported using No Coordinate System.
In the drawing the World UCS has been rotated such that Y is pointing to the
right and X is pointing down. This is done solely to make the drawing easier
to read since the canal runs North to South. Also, the model drawing has
been created using a coordinate system such that
any given point will have real X and Y coordinates. Because the canal is
similar to a road in that it consists of lines, arcs and tangents for the
alignment of the CL, Station 0,0 is taken from a tangent point projected
from the nearest end of curve point, therefore there are a number of
possible 0,0 or basepoints for the survey crew to work with. When the
surrvey crew collect data, they choose the relevent basepoint as their
Station 0 and then take shots relative to the CL of the canal i.e. Northing
being stations along the CL of the canal and easting being east or west of
the CL. So far this has worked great in LDDT, but I can't get the points
inserted into my drawing correctly using Civil 3D. Whats happening is that
the points are being inserted relative to the World 0,0 and therefore are
aligned according to the X and Y and 0,0 of autocad, thus my points are
totally way out of the site area. (I hope this makes sense).
Is there a way of doing this in Civil 3D. I have tried using a coordinate
system (NAD 27 3 deg. MTM) and then trying to transform the points by
picking a reference point and angle, but the points are always inserted
relative to WCS at Acad 0,0. I've tried defining a UCS, with the basepoint
being my Station 0,0 and the angle being relative to the CL that I need, but
the points still get inserted at WCS. I would have pulled all my hair out by
now if I had any, and I am now at the end of my wits trying to figure this
one out. My question also, would be, is there a better way of working with
these points. I mean, could I use the alignment of the canal for inserting
my point data, or some other method. Please note that at the moment the
drawing does not have any alignments set up, but I am willing to try new
ideas if they will help me achieve the end result. Otherwise I may just have
to switch back to LDDT.

Thanks for any help.

I'm using Civil 3D 2006.

[fgolaub]

Thanks Bill,

But I do work in MS/PS and that really isn't the issue.
All the design work is done in model space and then views, dims, text etc are added in PS. I have been using MS/PS since V12 of Acad so I know how to rotate my views etc. I actually inherited this drawing when I started working at my present job and it was created in the early days of CAD before MS/PS was widely used. Also because it is a model of a whole site plan it affects to many drawings to rotate the WCS back to its original state, and also it is easier to work with orientated the way it is, as the originator intended.
Now, if what your saying is that I need to insert my point data whilst in paperspace, well then thats a different story. Please clarify.

[Anonymous]

From what you've described, it sounds like a nightmare of a setup, but
that's a different thread.

Possibly convert the points into station/offset with Excel? I'm a little
unclear about your description of how the field crews are collecting the
data, but it may be possible to convert their data with some creative
functions within Excel to station/offset, the import them that way (I've
never tried sta/off imports with Civil3D, but I would hope that it is
possible and built-in).

The only other idea that pops into my head (again, based on my
interpretation of your post) is to create drawings as required for importing
the survey data, then XRef those into your working model, rotating as
required.

wrote in message news:5392222@discussion.autodesk.com...
I have read all the postings regarding the option of defining a basepoint
and north rotation that was available in LDDT, and I was one of those people
that had to use this function.
Why, because the drawing that I work with is of a canal system that uses the
centreline of the canal for importing survey data in Point, Northing,
Easting, Description format, relative to this centreline. In LDDT this data
was imported using No Coordinate System.
In the drawing the World UCS has been rotated such that Y is pointing to the
right and X is pointing down. This is done solely to make the drawing easier
to read since the canal runs North to South. Also, the model drawing has
been created using a coordinate system such that
any given point will have real X and Y coordinates. Because the canal is
similar to a road in that it consists of lines, arcs and tangents for the
alignment of the CL, Station 0,0 is taken from a tangent point projected
from the nearest end of curve point, therefore there are a number of
possible 0,0 or basepoints for the survey crew to work with. When the
surrvey crew collect data, they choose the relevent basepoint as their
Station 0 and then take shots relative to the CL of the canal i.e. Northing
being stations along the CL of the canal and easting being east or west of
the CL. So far this has worked great in LDDT, but I can't get the points
inserted into my drawing correctly using Civil 3D. Whats happening is that
the points are being inserted relative to the World 0,0 and therefore are
aligned according to the X and Y and 0,0 of autocad, thus my points are
totally way out of the site area. (I hope this makes sense).
Is there a way of doing this in Civil 3D. I have tried using a coordinate
system (NAD 27 3 deg. MTM) and then trying to transform the points by
picking a reference point and angle, but the points are always inserted
relative to WCS at Acad 0,0. I've tried defining a UCS, with the basepoint
being my Station 0,0 and the angle being relative to the CL that I need, but
the points still get inserted at WCS. I would have pulled all my hair out by
now if I had any, and I am now at the end of my wits trying to figure this
one out. My question also, would be, is there a better way of working with
these points. I mean, could I use the alignment of the canal for inserting
my point data, or some other method. Please note that at the moment the
drawing does not have any alignments set up, but I am willing to try new
ideas if they will help me achieve the end result. Otherwise I may just have
to switch back to LDDT.

Thanks for any help.

I'm using Civil 3D 2006.

[fgolaub]

Thanks TomD,

Its not actually as nightmarish as it sounds....I didn't create it, so if there is a better way of importing data, i'm all ears.
The data is collected and given to me as an excel file in the format of Point, Station, Easting, Elevation, Description (PNEZD). All I do is convert it to a *.CSV file and import it (thats what I do in LDDT).
And Yes, my 2nd thoughts are to import the points into a seperate file and then maybe x-ref or insert as a block. In this instance I don't need the points to create a surface, they are there for locating structures etc. However, if I needed to build a surface could this be done with points inserted as an xref?

[Anonymous]

Short answer would be no, about creating a surface from XRef'ed points.

Longer answer is that you would have plenty of options, such export to Acad,
likely leaving you with Acad POINT objects at X,Y,Z locations (assuming
style is set appropriately, of course), from which you could build the
surface. I haven't tried anything like this, yet, but if the setting for
modifying points is set to allow, you could probably insert the points, then
rotate them, from there you could certainly build the surface.

wrote in message news:5392496@discussion.autodesk.com...

And Yes, my 2nd thoughts are to import the points into a seperate file and
then maybe x-ref or insert as a block. In this instance I don't need the
points to create a surface, they are there for locating structures etc.
However, if I needed to build a surface could this be done with points
inserted as an xref?

[Anonymous]

it is a little hard to read your post and i am not sure i am getting it all
straight....

but do you need a north rotation so that things like stakeout, etc work
properly? or do you just need to get your data in looking right so it works?

do you need the points themselves? or would a resulting surface be ok?

because something you could do is import your points into another drawing,
build a surface. make the surface look like TIN. explode it twice. rotate
it to the right orientation. then insert this into your working drawing and
create a surface from drawing objects.

but i dont know if that gets you what you need.

and for some information about UCS, dview and how Civil 3D treats WCS vs UCS
here are some references:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/09/more-on-ucs-vs-dview-in-civil-3d/

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/09/take-advantage-of-the-twisting-labels/


--
Dana Breig Probert, E.I.T.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
www.civil3d.com
www.eng-eff.com
----------------------------------
Civil 3D 2007 SP3
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 2.01 GHz
2GB RAM, 256 MB ATI FireGL V5200

Intel Core 2 2.33GHz
2 GB RAM, 512 MB NVIDIA Quadro
-------------------------------------------

[fgolaub]

Hi Dana,

Yes, I know, I tried to explain it as best I could but without seeing the problem its always difficult to understand.
Up until now we have been using LDDT and we had no problems importing points aligned with the centreline of the canal. The WCS is rotated about the Z axis 90 deg. then the view is "twisted" using the "plan" command and then UCS is set to world so that the Y axis points to the Right and the X axis points down with a World Coordinate System. Inn LDDT there is a command that allows you to set a base point other than 0,0 and also a North rotation. This allows you to insert data into the drawing on an angle even though the drawing is set to WCS. I can't seem to do this in Civil 3D.

[Anonymous]

I think what Dana is trying to say here is that particular process in LDT
does not exist in Civil 3D. Because labels react dynamically to orientation
now and the flip angle can be specified, North Rotation is a bit moot.

I have several surveying friends who swear by the North Rotation in LDT
because it would label the bearings correctly while having the linework
oriented as needed for the production sheet. They realize that assuming a
base point / north rotation in Civil 3D doesn't exist and will not for the
foreseeable future.

Sorry dude... Didn't mean to take you out of your comfort zone...

wrote in message news:5395187@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

Yes, I know, I tried to explain it as best I could but without seeing the
problem its always difficult to understand.
Up until now we have been using LDDT and we had no problems importing points
aligned with the centreline of the canal. The WCS is rotated about the Z
axis 90 deg. then the view is "twisted" using the "plan" command and then
UCS is set to world so that the Y axis points to the Right and the X axis
points down with a World Coordinate System. Inn LDDT there is a command
that allows you to set a base point other than 0,0 and also a North
rotation. This allows you to insert data into the drawing on an angle even
though the drawing is set to WCS. I can't seem to do this in Civil 3D.

[fgolaub]

I’ve temporarily switched back to LDDT and managed to seamlessly import my point data in the correct location using a base point and North rotation other than World 0,0.
It seems like Civil 3D can’t import data correctly unless it relative to a “fixed” base point of 0,0 and the coordinates are relative to the WCS.
In my example, I have a base point at (x = 326574.233 , y = 4788941.619 ) with a North rotated at 156 deg, 12M, 14S from the vertical. This is my Station 0,0 (North “station” = 0 , Easting = 0) for the Centreline of the canal. My point data is in the form of Pnt #, Northing , Easting , Elevation , Description, so an example would be Pnt # = 4, Station (y) = 6059.998, Easting = -16.951, Elev. = 104.304, Desc. = Bollard. When I import my points this would be inserted at the following “actual” coordinates ( x = 329034.854 , y = 4783403.64 ), though as far as I’m concerned it is at Station 6+059 , 16.951 East relative to the CL of the Canal. The drawing is set to WCS, and not a UCS. However, when I import the same points into Civil 3D they are inserted at the following (X = -16.951 , Y = 6059.998) relative to WCS 0,0 so they are totally out of my site area.
I hope you all understand a little better why I need this function since I can’t import my data into the correct location and it has nothing to do with using Dtwist or defining a UCS to rotate my drawing so that labels can be easily read. All design work is done in Model Space, UCS’s are defined for the purpose of aligning the Centreline of the Canal for Stationing. However, all data, points, surfaces etc are imported or created within a World Coordinate System environment. All views are created in PS and rotated or “twisted” as necessary. It’s a shame that I can’t yet achieve what I need in Civil 3D since its supposed to be a more powerful program, but I still hope that someone can point me in the right direction without me having to revert back to using LDDT.

Thanks for the help aand Ideas so far.

Titus67

[mmccall]

I have a couple of ideas I'd like to try. Could you post a portion of one the those point files you're importing?

I was thinking of seeing how it reacts to the N and E values being imported as grid N & E with a relocated and rotated grid.

I'd also like to try importing them as stations and offsets to an alignment, which, really is what they are, just with 0+0 assumed at different segments.

[fgolaub]

A quick update:
As suggested by TomD, I imported the points into a seperate drawing file. Next I opened my model drawing and setup my UCS so that I have my basepoint at my selected 0,0 and rotated appropriately. I inserted the drawing with the points already loaded, and they came in exactly where I wanted them. Next, when I exploded the block, the points became part of Civil 3D so that I could control their appearance etc.
So it seems that would be my work around.
MMccall, I will gladly post a portion of the point file. I would be very interested to see how to import point data using Station, Offset to an alignment as you have suggested, since as you say, that is exactly what they are. Just let me know how and where to post the point file.

Thanks.

[mmccall]

I'm using the web interface to this group and there's a "Attach File" button below the message box.

You could also just copy and paste the first 10 points or so from the point file and paste it right into the message.

or, "e" me at gellersive dot com.


Your application of TomD's solution does get the job done.

[fgolaub]

#Point Number #Station #Offset #Elevation #Description
4, 6059.998, -16.951, 104.304, topCL bollard
5, 6041.826, -16.96, 104.315, topCLbollard
6, 6028.97, -16.921, 104.328, topCL bollard
7, 6016.602, -16.956, 104.346, topCLbollard
8, 5998.324, -16.984, 104.334, topCLbollard
9, 5986.242, -16.956, 104.323, topCLbollard
10, 5973.861, -16.959, 104.322, topCLbollard
11, 5961.667, -17.018, 104.337, topCLbollard
12, 5943.311, -16.91, 104.325, topCLbollard
13, 5924.98, -16.868, 104.336, topCLbollard
14, 5912.887, -16.883, 104.322, topCLbollard
15, 5900.7, -16.884, 104.332, topCLbollard

MMccall,

Here is a portion of the point file. The points are inserted as a *csv file (comma delimited).

Good Luck.

[mmccall]

I tested with the alignment method. On the create points tool bar there's a menu for points along alignments. The last selection is 'import from file'. it asks you for a file format an delimiter based on selecting a number .... you have to go to the help system to find out what these are ... !?!?!? Anyway, station, offset, Z, Desc. is format 5 with delimiter 2 (comma)

It works, provided you:

A) Create a C3d alignment.

B) Strip off the point numbers before importing the file and allow the software to assign them sequentially using the 'next point number' setting.

You could either create an alignment for each segment used for collecting data or move one alignment around as needed for importing. The points hold no relationship to the alignment once they're imported. You can even delete it if you wish. There is also no option for overwriting, offsetting or merging points imported using this method. This method would be better if there was the option to include the point number in the import file as the point numbers may not always be sequential.


I could also see possibly misusing this method to import points collected in a different coordinate system by creating an alignment with 0+0 at the world coord of the alternate system and aligned towards north for the alternate.

[fgolaub]

Thats great,
I tried this method on both LDDT and Civil 3D and the points were inserted in the correct location. however, like you said, I lose the ability to control the point numbering and also in Civil 3D when I list the points, Northing and Easting are relative to World coordinates and not the coordinates from the point file, thus making it a little difficult to figure out which point is which. This is not the case in LDDT.
To overcome this, in Civil 3D I specified a zone transformation and used station 0,0 as my reference point and the end of the alignment as my rotation point and gave Grid North the station value. This enabled me to get the actual point coordinates from the point file diplayed when I did a list point and added the Grid North and Grid East columns.
There are 17 locations where the surveyors will specify Station 0+00 as there base point, so it looks like creating alignments for the purpose of importing points might be the way to go for me.

Thanks.