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When are Pipes coming?

26 REPLIES 26
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Message 1 of 27
jharris
224 Views, 26 Replies

When are Pipes coming?

For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been asking for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but common. Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of Pipes.

Autodesk, How can I put this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!!

Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it..

It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created based upon existing point data.....
26 REPLIES 26
Message 2 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Hey ledhed; Based on past performance, IMHO the ETA will be... "Real Soon now!" -- Don Reichle Hacker Engineering, Inc. "King of Work-Arounds" LDT & CD 2004 C3D/LDT 2004 On HP Pavilion a367c 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM XP PRO - SP2 "ledhed" wrote in message news:11195708.1099081418787.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been asking > for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but common. > Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of Pipes. > > Autodesk, How can I out this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!! > > Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it.. > > It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's > 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created based > upon existing point data.....
Message 3 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Real Soon ???? How soon...... Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during a webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. "Don Reichle" wrote in message news:4182ab7a$1_2@newsprd01... > Hey ledhed; > > Based on past performance, IMHO the ETA will be... > "Real Soon now!" > > -- > Don Reichle > Hacker Engineering, Inc. > "King of Work-Arounds" > LDT & CD 2004 > C3D/LDT 2004 > On HP Pavilion a367c > 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM > XP PRO - SP2 > > > "ledhed" wrote in message > news:11195708.1099081418787.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > > For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been asking > > for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but common. > > Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of Pipes. > > > > Autodesk, How can I out this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!! > > > > Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it.. > > > > It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's > > 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created based > > upon existing point data..... > >
Message 4 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

I don't know, but I hear a tone of sarcasm coming from Don's fingers. Bruce "Landman" wrote in message news:4182b9a1$1_1@newsprd01... > Real Soon ???? How soon...... > > Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I > was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of > the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to > dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during a > webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. > > "Don Reichle" wrote in message > news:4182ab7a$1_2@newsprd01... > > Hey ledhed; > > > > Based on past performance, IMHO the ETA will be... > > "Real Soon now!" > > > > -- > > Don Reichle > > Hacker Engineering, Inc. > > "King of Work-Arounds" > > LDT & CD 2004 > > C3D/LDT 2004 > > On HP Pavilion a367c > > 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM > > XP PRO - SP2 > > > > > > "ledhed" wrote in message > > news:11195708.1099081418787.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > > > For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been asking > > > for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but common. > > > Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of Pipes. > > > > > > Autodesk, How can I out this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it.. > > > > > > It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's > > > 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created based > > > upon existing point data..... > > > > > >
Message 5 of 27
jharris
in reply to: jharris

I really don't understand AutoDesk's approach to C3D... It seems to me that they have most of their LDD development resources focused on an aging piece of software (LDD) when they should be putting most of their development resources into "The Next Big Thing" aka Civil3D... Why waste our time with preview releases of upcoming technology we can't use?

Give us something worth upgrading to, not this "Look what we're working on" CRAP! I want a Dynamic Land Development package, and I want it yesterday!!! Autodesk, put some manpower behind this thing!!!!!!!!

This "It's coming" garbage will only keep people happy for so long, eventually you have to produce something.........

I'll step down from my soap box now.. 🙂
Message 6 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

This IS where the developers manpower has been over the last, what 4-5 years. There has been very little change in LDT, and Civil that we have known since LDD1. With the learning curve C3D brings, I don't think I would have time to learn a complete package at once. What is currently in C3D is a very powerful design package with dynamic features, and it is out there and ready to use. I just received my copy today. The rest will come, pipes just wasn't as high on the priority list. And I definitely want what they have now, rather than wait another year or two, or however long it takes. Bruce "ledhed" wrote in message news:16030818.1099089438816.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum1.autodesk.com... > I really don't understand AutoDesk's approach to C3D... It seems to me that they have most of their LDD development resources focused on an aging piece of software (LDD) when they should be putting most of their development resources into "The Next Big Thing" aka Civil3D... Why waste our time with preview releases of upcoming technology we can't use? > > Give us something worth upgrading to, not this "Look what we're working on" CRAP! I want a Dynamic Land Development package, and I want it yesterday!!! Autodesk, put some manpower behind this thing!!!!!!!! > > This "It's coming" garbage will only keep people happy for so long, eventually you have to produce something......... > > I'll step down from my soap box now.. 🙂
Message 7 of 27
jharris
in reply to: jharris

You sort of condradict yourself. You don't have the time to learn new software, yet you want what C3D 2005 has to offer? I sure hope Autodesk doesnt start releasing software in peices just so that users can learn in steps.

Also, if most of Autodesk's manpower was on C3D for the past 4-5 years as you say, then C3D would have already replaced LDD. The fact that LDD hasn't changed much in 5 years just goes to show how little resources Autodesk puts towards their Civil products. If you compare the advances seen in Autodesk's Flagship products such as Architectural Desktop (which is very dynamic), you can better understand how little has been put into developing LDD, and how seriously lacking it is.

C3D can't exist without LDD at this point. It lacks many of the needed features for design. For instance, you still need LDD to build an accurate existing surface. You cant do any underground design with it. You just can't use it in a production environment yet.

My point is that Autodesk needs to get C3D out the door with all the necessary features to fully replace LDD, and it needs to do it soon.
Message 8 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Good ears, Bruce. That statement I used is unlimited in its scope, and vague to the nth degree. -- Don Reichle Hacker Engineering, Inc. "King of Work-Arounds" LDT & CD 2004 C3D/LDT 2004 On HP Pavilion a367c 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM XP PRO - SP2 "B Jordan" wrote in message news:4182bf59_3@newsprd01... >I don't know, but I hear a tone of sarcasm coming from Don's fingers. > > Bruce > > "Landman" wrote in message > news:4182b9a1$1_1@newsprd01... >> Real Soon ???? How soon...... >> >> Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I >> was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of >> the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to >> dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during >> a >> webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. >> >> "Don Reichle" wrote in message >> news:4182ab7a$1_2@newsprd01... >> > Hey ledhed; >> > >> > Based on past performance, IMHO the ETA will be... >> > "Real Soon now!" >> > >> > -- >> > Don Reichle >> > Hacker Engineering, Inc. >> > "King of Work-Arounds" >> > LDT & CD 2004 >> > C3D/LDT 2004 >> > On HP Pavilion a367c >> > 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM >> > XP PRO - SP2 >> > >> > >> > "ledhed" wrote in message >> > news:11195708.1099081418787.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... >> > > For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been > asking >> > > for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but > common. >> > > Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of >> > > Pipes. >> > > >> > > Autodesk, How can I out this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!! >> > > >> > > Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it.. >> > > >> > > It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's >> > > 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created >> > > based >> > > upon existing point data..... >> > >> > >> >> > >
Message 9 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

The microwave generation has spoken. Personally I too was wondering when (if ever) they were going to put the NYI monster to death. I'm glad to see the reason (C3D) they have been leaving things undone in LDT. Not Yet Implemented I have been impressed by what I have seen so far in connection to C3D, and even though my introduction to it has been rather rocky, I will be enthusiastic in my support of this new direction they are taking. Dynamic designing is where our client's have been going with their What-If scenarios, during the tentative design stage. Road Output Extension along with Vertical Alignment Editor have been great leaps forward. C3D gets us closer than we've ever been able to work at real-time revisions and the What-If scenarios. Just in the short time I had with C3D, I was able to see that when I had the FG profile where I wanted it, I could grab the horizontal alignment and with real time graphics find the best location for it in relationship to the profile I wanted. -- Don Reichle Hacker Engineering, Inc. "King of Work-Arounds" LDT & CD 2004 C3D/LDT 2004 On HP Pavilion a367c 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM XP PRO - SP2 "ledhed" wrote in message news:14043123.1099093753861.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > You sort of condridict yourself. You don't have the time to learn new > software, yet you want what C3D 2005 has to offer? I sure hope Autodesk > doesnt start releasing software in peices just so that users can learn in > steps. > > Also, if most of Autodesk's manpower was on C3D for the past 4-5 years as > you say, then C3D would have already replaced LDD. The fact that LDD > hasn't changed much in 5 years just goes to show how little resources > Autodesk puts towards their Civil products. > > C3D can't exist without LDD at this point. It lacks many of the needed > features for design. For instance, you still need LDD to build an accurate > existing surface. You cant do any underground design with it. You just > can't use it in a production environment yet. > > My point is that Autodesk needs to get C3D out the door with all the > necessary features to fully replace LDD, and it needs to do it soon.
Message 10 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Ahem.... You may want to reread the Non Disclosure Agreement your agreed to as part of the Beta effort. IIRC, you can't even state you are a participant, let alone discuss what you heard, or did not hear, in beta conversations. In a more general sense, features will be added when they are added and Adesk is always very close to the chest about release dates for new features. If someone says they know a guy who knows a guy who knows - don't believe it -- Karl Fuls PLS Autocad AEC Training and Consulting Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator Landman wrote: > Real Soon ???? How soon...... > > Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I > was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of > the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to > dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during a > webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. >
Message 11 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Hey Karl; Then if I read you correctly, we can't even participate in the Webcasts, or this NG. I've always wondered why there aren't more questions from the Webcast audience. NDA true believers! -- Don Reichle Hacker Engineering, Inc. "King of Work-Arounds" "Karl Fuls" wrote in message news:418355b7$1_3@newsprd01... > Ahem.... > > You may want to reread the Non Disclosure Agreement your agreed to as part > of the Beta effort. IIRC, you can't even state you are a participant, let > alone discuss what you heard, or did not hear, in beta conversations. > > In a more general sense, features will be added when they are added and > Adesk is always very close to the chest about release dates for new > features. If someone says they know a guy who knows a guy who knows - > don't believe it > > -- > Karl Fuls PLS > Autocad AEC Training and Consulting > Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator > > Landman wrote: >> Real Soon ???? How soon...... >> >> Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I >> was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of >> the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to >> dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during >> a >> webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. >>
Message 12 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Maybee a bit of insite over the fence. . . I am from an MX background but with Bentley's acuasition of Infrasoft (MX) there is an uneasy fealing in the MX comunity of thier continued support & development for MX in AutoCAD (Hence I am here looking at an alternative to Bentley MX). With Bentley's acuasition of MX and with Geopac and Inroads they are now the leader in all civil markets (Bentley's words not mine!!). Bentley are also working on the 'dynamically linked objects' way of designing as well, but Autodesk appears much further down the development path than Bentley. I believe AutoDesk is working very hard on Civil3D, and on 'getting it right first time', and to beat Bentley to market. As this is a chance for AutoDesk to take the market leader position in the civil sector. But to do that they 'must get it right first time' hence the focus on the core rather that the extensions. I believe Civil3D is that important to AutoDesk! PS I hope they suceed Mark
Message 13 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Hi all - Unfortunately, Autodesk (as a public company) is prohibited from publicly discussing future functionality or product direction. I can say that the requirement to add Pipe layout and drafting functionality is very, very clear. However, at this point, your best solution is to move data back and forth between Civil 3D and LDT/ACD 2005. We'll provide more information on our plans for addressing this requirement once the timing is appropriate. Thanks Dave S "ledhed" wrote in message news:11195708.1099081418787.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > For quite a while (since C3D was first released) people have been asking for Pipes. I know that they are on the developement roadmap, but common. Its been a while and even the betas aren't showing any signs of Pipes. > > Autodesk, How can I out this? PIPES, PIPES, PIPES!!!!!!!!!! > > Put the darn pipes in and you can start Charging $$$$ for it.. > > It would also be nice to have a Feature Line option similar to LDD's 3DPoly -> Curve command, that allows for 3D curves to be created based upon existing point data.....
Message 14 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

You posted barely a month ago because you didn't know if or when you should implement Civil 3D. (My guess is "how" was a mystery too.) I could be wrong but I seriously doubt if you have any developmental experience or any actual knowlege of the manpower Autodesk has devoted to Civil 3D. So...what you do have is a pocketful of unqualified indignation and a pissy attitude leading into the weekend. -- Mike Norton Total CAD Sytems Inc Houston, Texas "ledhed" wrote in message news:14043123.1099093753861.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > You sort of condridict yourself. You don't have the time to learn new software, yet you want what C3D 2005 has to offer? I sure hope Autodesk doesnt start releasing software in peices just so that users can learn in steps. > > Also, if most of Autodesk's manpower was on C3D for the past 4-5 years as you say, then C3D would have already replaced LDD. The fact that LDD hasn't changed much in 5 years just goes to show how little resources Autodesk puts towards their Civil products. > > C3D can't exist without LDD at this point. It lacks many of the needed features for design. For instance, you still need LDD to build an accurate existing surface. You cant do any underground design with it. You just can't use it in a production environment yet. > > My point is that Autodesk needs to get C3D out the door with all the necessary features to fully replace LDD, and it needs to do it soon.
Message 15 of 27
jharris
in reply to: jharris

I posted previously about C3D because I've played with it quite a bit and have yet to find it useful in my daily work. My post was in hopes that someone could give me some insight on how or when it could be used productively. I never got a good answer to that one, probably because there isn't a productive way to use C3D yet. In that post you (Mike Norton) said "I contact SOMEONE at Autodesk almost daily
soliciting information on how best to integrate it into the production process." Obviously if you are contacting Autodesk on a daily basis on integration, then the "HOW" is a mystery to you also.

You are right, I don't know how much development manpower Autodesk has on C3D or LDD, but I do know that its not enough. That much is evident in their slow/stagnant releases of LDD & C3D. I do have development experience but not related to AutoCAD. I'm currently working on learning software for Autistic children, and I working on a Linux Firewall distro in my spare time.

I've been working in the Civil Engineering field for 9 years now, 4 USAF, 5 Private sector. I'm sure that you have more time in this field than I, but 9 years is hardly unqualified in my opinion.

My pissy attitude is more or less reserved for Autodesk because they have decided to release a new product every year even if there are only a handful of new/useful features. If you look at the improvements since LDD r2, there are hardly enough to justify 1 new release let alone 5. Autodesk is mearly looking to leech its customers on a more regular basis. I sure you find this appealing, but many of us don't.

Civil3D has a lot of promise, and when/if it is complete it will be well worth an upgrade. Its the only significant step Autodesk has made with LDD since they snatched up SoftDesk! My point is that they need to add some necessary features and get a useful release out the door.

If you don't like my opinion tuff, learn to deal with it....


By the way, I think you spelled "SYSTEMS" wrong in your signature file.
Message 16 of 27
jharris
in reply to: jharris

Its nice to see that someone from Autodesk actually reads these posts.
Message 17 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

Gentlemen; Speaking as a highly interested third party... You both bring up good points, but could you leave the name-calling to less public venues. Your passionate opinions may be affecting your better judgment. "Divide and Conquer" is still very much in affect in the world. Just look to tomorrow's national election. This is exactly the kind of attitude that won't get the job done. The job being having the C3D development team listen to a concerted, consensus-based set of feedback from us. Would it be possible for you two to decide which agenda items are Convictions, and which are Preferences? Many a time I've decided the best course of action is to hit the Exit button, after reading over my "Reaction" instead of my "Response". An old German proverb goes like this... "No Answer is also an Answer." Sometimes it's proper to speak your mind, sometimes it's not. It would be far more productive if you two could agree to disagree, and try to find some common ground that you can focus on to advance the state of the current product to a desirable end. I'll relinquish the soap-box now. :-) -- Don Reichle Hacker Engineering, Inc. "King of Work-Arounds" LDT & CD 2004 C3D 2004 On HP Pavilion a367c 2.80 Ghz/512MB RAM XP PRO - SP2 "ledhed" wrote in message news:3282602.1099332147402.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... >I posted previously about C3D because I've played with it quite a bit and >have yet to find it useful in my daily work. My post was in hopes that >someone could give me some insight on how or when it could be used >productively. I never got a good answer to that one, probably because there >isn't a productive way to use C3D yet. In that post you (Mike Norton) said >"I contact SOMEONE at Autodesk almost daily > soliciting information on how best to integrate it into the production > process." Obviously if you are contacting Autodesk on a daily basis on > integration, then the "HOW" is a mystery to you also. > > You are right, I don't know how much development manpower Autodesk has on > C3D or LDD, but I do know that its not enough. That much is evident in > their slow/stagnant releases of LDD & C3D. I do have development > experience but not related to AutoCAD. I'm currently working on learning > software for Autistic children, and I working on a Linux Firewall distro > in my spare time. > > I've been working in the Civil Engineering field for 9 years now, 4 USAF, > 5 Private sector. I'm sure that you have more time in this field than I, > but 9 years is hardly unqualified in my opinion. > > My pissy attitude is more or less reserved for Autodesk because they have > decided to release a new product every year even if there are only a > handful of new/useful features. If you look at the improvements since LDD > r2, there are hardly enough to justify 1 new release let alone 5. Autodesk > is mearly looking to leech its customers on a more regular basis. I sure > you find this appealing, but many of us don't. > > Civil3D has a lot of promise, and when/if it is complete it will be well > worth an upgrade. Its the only significant step Autodesk has made with > LDD since they snatched up SoftDesk! My point is that they need to add > some necessary features and get a useful release out the door. > > If you don't like my opinion tuff, learn to deal with it....
Message 18 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

I apologize for the oversight on my part. However the main portion of my conversation in this post was based information provided to me via a webcast and I was not bound by NDA but still did not go into detail. Once again I apologize for the oversight. "Karl Fuls" wrote in message news:418355b7$1_3@newsprd01... > Ahem.... > > You may want to reread the Non Disclosure Agreement your agreed to as > part of the Beta effort. IIRC, you can't even state you are a > participant, let alone discuss what you heard, or did not hear, in beta > conversations. > > In a more general sense, features will be added when they are added and > Adesk is always very close to the chest about release dates for new > features. If someone says they know a guy who knows a guy who knows - > don't believe it > > -- > Karl Fuls PLS > Autocad AEC Training and Consulting > Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator > > Landman wrote: > > Real Soon ???? How soon...... > > > > Based on my conversations within the Beta Testing community on civil 3d I > > was never provided a timeline for the release of Pipes. I do know some of > > the new features that will be included but I do not believe I am able to > > dicuss them as they where whispered to me by a autodesk developer during a > > webcast. I would love to know when you think it is going to be out. > >
Message 19 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

I stand by my contention to you a month ago that, at this stage in its development, Civil 3D is an excellent preliminary design tool. It's not that you didn't get a good answer, it just wasn't the answer that fit your soapbox. I also stand by my admittedly snide remarks questioning your qualifications. You may be one crackerjack civil guy but my money says you don't know squat about what it takes to program a comprehensive civil design package nor even have a clue of how many people Autodesk has devoted to developing Civil 3D. Am I wrong? Tell us about the last program you wrote. Tell us how many programmers are currently working on the new Pipes function. That being said...I still believe, in spite of your lack of practical qualifications in the areas that I mentioned, that you have the right to complain as loudly as you feel necessary. Experience is certainly not a prerequisite for dissatisfaction. I apologize if I have spoken in error and your complaints are, in fact, based on something other than speculation and assumption. You presume familiarity with me, my job, my relationship with Autodesk and my clients so, in my defense, I made some assumptions of my own. -- Mike Norton Total CAD Sytems Inc Houston, Texas "ledhed" wrote in message news:3282602.1099332147402.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > I posted previously about C3D because I've played with it quite a bit and have yet to find it useful in my daily work. My post was in hopes that someone could give me some insight on how or when it could be used productively. I never got a good answer to that one, probably because there isn't a productive way to use C3D yet. In that post you (Mike Norton) said "I contact SOMEONE at Autodesk almost daily > soliciting information on how best to integrate it into the production process." Obviously if you are contacting Autodesk on a daily basis on integration, then the "HOW" is a mystery to you also. > > You are right, I don't know how much development manpower Autodesk has on C3D or LDD, but I do know that its not enough. That much is evident in their slow/stagnant releases of LDD & C3D. I do have development experience but not related to AutoCAD. I'm currently working on learning software for Autistic children, and I working on a Linux Firewall distro in my spare time. > > I've been working in the Civil Engineering field for 9 years now, 4 USAF, 5 Private sector. I'm sure that you have more time in this field than I, but 9 years is hardly unqualified in my opinion. > > My pissy attitude is more or less reserved for Autodesk because they have decided to release a new product every year even if there are only a handful of new/useful features. If you look at the improvements since LDD r2, there are hardly enough to justify 1 new release let alone 5. Autodesk is mearly looking to leech its customers on a more regular basis. I sure you find this appealing, but many of us don't. > > Civil3D has a lot of promise, and when/if it is complete it will be well worth an upgrade. Its the only significant step Autodesk has made with LDD since they snatched up SoftDesk! My point is that they need to add some necessary features and get a useful release out the door. > > If you don't like my opinion tuff, learn to deal with it....
Message 20 of 27
Anonymous
in reply to: jharris

For what it's worth, I agree with "ledhed". Autodesk have been far too slow in implementing Civil 3D or improving Land Desktop at any stage over the past five years. I don't care how many staff they have on the job. My firm stopped waiting two years ago and adopted alternative software which was developed from scratch by a small team of developers who probably number a very small fraction of Autodesk's programming manpower. They implement features way ahead of Land Desktop and manage to do it in a fraction of the time. When are Autodesk going to equal that rate of achievement. Unless they do, then Land Desktop will never be viable. It's just getting too late to keep saying "we're taking our time to get it right". We need them to get it right and get it right today not next decade. (On second thoughts, no we don't; it's already too late !) Doug Boys

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