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What made you switch from Land Desktop?

29 REPLIES 29
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Message 1 of 30
dana.probert
1460 Views, 29 Replies

What made you switch from Land Desktop?

Hi Everyone

 

I know we've had this discussion in bits and pieces over the years.

 

I am collecting information about what finally made you/your company make the switch from Land Desktop to Civil 3D.

 

What finally convince you (or helped you convince the boss) to make the change?

 

If you aren't fully switched to Civil 3D, what holds you back?

 

Is it about specific features? Is it about value? What tools make your life easier? What about the big picture- billable hours, client requests, critical mass on knowledge and learning?

 

Thanks!

 

Dana

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure
29 REPLIES 29
Message 2 of 30
Westhills
in reply to: dana.probert

Autodesk stopped supporting LDD. 

Win 7 64bit
16 Gigs Ram
Intel i7 870
Quadro fx1800
C3D 2011/2012
ASUS Custom
Dual 24 Phillips screens
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Message 3 of 30
chd4trichard
in reply to: dana.probert

Surfaces and profiles that automatically rebuild had to be the biggest benefit I saw.  Cuts drafting time by big chunks when you don't have to re-create profiles and contours with every revision.  Then I discovered pipes and the labeling features, which cut drafting time in half again (after the learning curve).  With C3D, I could create a site plan or development plans in about half the time, and much more of that time was spent on design work rather than drafting, which created a better finished product. Granted, it took about 12 months to get comfortable with the software, and to create a solid template, but in hindsight it was well worth it.

Message 4 of 30
MtnMax700
in reply to: chd4trichard

Autodesk stopped supporting LDD.   I use so little of what Civil3D does that it was/is not worth it to me.  Don't know why they worried so much about it because they don't worry about updates and such.

 

David

Message 5 of 30

When I first worked in the office I asked questions about how to use LDD. Based on the responses it became clear the office did not know how to fully use LDD, despite the request to know how to use LDD in their employment ad. Rather then spend time on a program that was going a way I lobbied to get Civil 3D installed to learn on. Luckily I was able to get Civil 3D installed and was able to use it on projects in conjunction with LDD. This didn't seem to be a problem since they were mostly using LDD as AutoCAD anyways and an XREF shows up the same in both programs. Once others started using the program, Civil 3D starts to make the person learn Civil 3D. LDD I think one could use the product as an expensive version of AutoCAD without fully understanding how to use the features of the product.

 

Christopher

Message 6 of 30
punisher
in reply to: dana.probert

We were on subscription. 2007 got dropped on my desk for analysis and review.

What did I report back? 

  • Surfaces that dynamically build, and are so easy to edit and mod
  • Profile sheets that are plot ready as soon as the improvements are added
  • dynamic alignments and profiles
  • drag and drop sub-assemblies
  • corridor modeling without a degree in computer science
  • point management off the chart
  • transparent commands
  • gradings that were super-responsive and customizable

I could probably go on and on, but I'll let someone else talk....

 

John Evans
Autodesk Certified Professional

http://designandmotion.net
Message 7 of 30
mathewkol
in reply to: dana.probert

What finally convince you (or helped you convince the boss) to make the change?

I could get the job done faster with fewer errors than with Land Desktop.

It's more fun than LDT. 🙂

The fact that LDT became unsupported had no effect on our decision to move.

 

You didn't ask, but I thought I'd throw this in there.  What were the chalenges?

The learning curve.

Having to create multiple DWT files for each drafting standard we needed to work with.

Early bugs and missing functionality (we started with the 2005 version).

 

Is it about specific features? Is it about value? What tools make your life easier? What about the big picture- billable hours, client requests, critical mass on knowledge and learning?

The tools we got the most benefit from were:

Assembly creation (far easier than templates in LDT)

Corridor modeling - easy surface creation, targetting is very straightforward, way easier than LDT

Pipes

Dynamic cross sections. (one standard we needed to follow made us move section views around all over the place.  With LDT this was very time consuming when there was a change.

 

Matt Kolberg
SolidCAD Professional Services
http://www.solidcad.ca /
Message 8 of 30
MickMahoney
in reply to: dana.probert

We switched, basically because we had to.

C3D's 2 best features, I think, are:

1. It's dynamic nature.  The automatic updating of profiles is great, with plan and profile surfaces, piping & structures, etc. linked together.

2. It's compatibilty with Paperspace.  No matter how your profile is run, or even if you have to "pull off" a few stations due to graphic interferences, and you get a callout arrow, Paperspace makes everything readable.  LDD behaved as if there was no such thing as Paperspace.

 

Having said that, I miss the whole PROJECT concept of LDD.  I can't understand why it was abandoned.  I would have multiple surfaces in my Project, and be able to take a volume from any of them with opening up (ie: Existing Grading), or even viewing it.  All surfaces were simply there.   How Data Links is better escapes me.

 

Mick

Message 9 of 30
theminiguy
in reply to: dana.probert

I used a book (you may know it) "Introduction to C3D 2009" when partisipating in the beta release of C3D 2010.
I picked it up really quick, so quick I was able to present a class at AU09 with less than 12mth in the software..
cheers.
~~Laptop~~
Quad Core 2.3GHz Intel, 64-Bit, Win 7
16GB Ram, 2GB Graphics Card
256GB SSD

~~AU2009 Speaker~~
CV314-5: AutoCAD® Civil 3D® Design Straight Out of the Box: Going Where the Design Wizards Can't Always Go .....
Message 10 of 30
Sinc
in reply to: dana.probert

Given that we switched to C3D 2007 almost five years ago now, it must've been masochism...  Smiley Wink

 

These days, when I ask most people why they're still using LDD, I get a lot of responses that were true back then, but are no longer true as of C3D 2009 or 2010.  So much of the resistance I see now is from people who tried those early versions of C3D (or knew someone who did), and those early bad impressions are still sticking.  The product was rushed to market, and that created a bad stigma that is still difficult to overcome.

 

Then there's all the talk about how you need to hire training to move to C3D, and for a lot of people, that simply confirms the bad impressions and lingering doubts I just mentioned.  Those doubts get confirmed when people hit that initial learning curve.  Doubts get doubly-confirmed when people learn what a pain it is to setup and maintain Styles, mostly due to the poor design and UI.  They get triply-confirmed amongst anyone who needs to maintain multiple templates, because they must do work to different standards for different clients.  They get quadrupelly-confirmed the first time someone needs to edit the base Alignment of an 80% complete corridor design, or for LDD+Map experts who discover half their toolset is now either crippled or useless due to C3D-Map incompatibility, or for any of a number of similar issues.

 

However, I've also noticed that for most people who manage to make it through the initial trials and tribulations of learning and configuring C3D, it gets difficult to use other software.  And it becomes inconceivable to use LDD.  C3D is vastly superior in too many ways.

Sinc
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Message 11 of 30
punisher
in reply to: Sinc

Long time no see Sinc.

All your points right on...

John Evans
Autodesk Certified Professional

http://designandmotion.net
Message 12 of 30
Westhills
in reply to: Sinc

What Sinc said...

Win 7 64bit
16 Gigs Ram
Intel i7 870
Quadro fx1800
C3D 2011/2012
ASUS Custom
Dual 24 Phillips screens
Message 13 of 30
civilspace
in reply to: Sinc

I moved to C3D partially in 2005, without giving up LDD obviously, because 2005 was ****.  I suffered, immensely, through the initial years of C3D, and have seen it come a long, long way.  However, I do harbour those bad impressions, and still resent paying the many thousands for the honour of being a beta tester to an enormous company's newest tool.

 

After all the years, 6ish now, I'm extraordinarily proficient, but still find myself explaining to clients/boss why certain things can't be done a particular way, or when they are frustrated, why we should be using this or that feature; basically trying to now "sell" the software, constantly, to people who long for the days of LDD.

 

The Map/C3D vertical convergence/divergence has been nothing short of amusing to watch, release after release, as these two verticals knock into eachother year after year.  Amusement comes after Fury on Anthony's Hierarchy of Frustration. 

 

Edit to add:  I've been onthese boards since early 2000's, changed usernames (and names) often to avoid crossing paths with clients/prospects/bosses (I know many of you from years on these boards), and the frustration and outrage at the early (and recent) releases from Autodesk that have been voiced here - have largely amounted to:  Nothing.   Not that I expect them to read here - but I think that they should allow their Moderators on the forums to submit the "temperature" of the users to the feedback department, and the Mod's submissions should be taken seriosuly.  I think it's great folly to ignore the feedback goldmine that this forum is.

Regards,
Anthony
Message 14 of 30

A trip down memory lane...

 

We had a couple of complete projects that we were going around in circles with in revisions and I felt like a batch file running iterations and revision to sites...

 

Civil 3D preview, I think in 2004, got me interested to the point we broke out a project for pilot working on Civil 3D 2006.

 

Surfaces instant feedback was like a sugar-high...and going into the peak development cycle I was looking for speed!

We did lots of grading (yes, with Grading Objects), subdivisions (Dana's Parcel Rules), pipe networks, and some pretty complex projects that using Civil 3D drawins together with Land Desktop drawing, we were able to merge and put out some amazing projects.  

 

Nothing held me back.  Owner gave me free reign, however, on more than one occasion, expressed he felt no need to change.  

 

I had clients that loved how quick I could make alterations or show multiple options. (digs into the change billables) but leaves much more profitability up front.

 

 

Matthew Anderson, PE CFM
Product Manager
Autodesk (Innovyze)
Message 15 of 30
Murph_Map
in reply to: dana.probert

JW took Jichey away so I  had started doing support for it and I saw the light on how easier it was to use. 🙂

Murph
Supporting the troops daily.
Message 16 of 30
Buzz12345
in reply to: dana.probert

We have moved to C3D from LDD partly because autodesk stopped supporting it, but also because new functionality wasn't being built into it. (Gotta love that new bling!)


I also think that training newbies (people unsullied by experience with LDD) is easier than training in LDD because the user interface is more consistent across the various parts of C3D.  

 

The dynamic nature of the objects is fantastic - in LDD it used to take us about 20 mins to recompute a road design and create a new FG surface. Now it's almost instantaneous - Fantastic.

 

At this stage C3D seems to have matured to the point where it's got a reasonably full feature set, and performance and stability is pretty good.

Michael
AEC Collection - Civil3D 2023 & Infraworks 2023
www.foxsurvey.co.nz
Message 17 of 30
Anonymous
in reply to: dana.probert

I concur with what Sinc stated.  Like what one of the posts stated, I started back in 2005 with Civil3D, as a guinea pig for a company who had 3 licenses of LDD for 40 people, and the Survey Dept always had one of those.  They had enough licenses for AutoCAD for everybody else.

I thought the learning curve was very steep and things where easier to do in LDD.  I didn't like going thru 100 lbs of scat for a shot glass full of data.  In some ways this still applies.  Some Management does not understand the learning curve and the time to learn it.  I was doing template set ups and since this is overhead my billability dropped and I was laid off.  I have a Student Version now, to stay up with it, so I have seen the improvements, because if you don't use it you lose it in case I get the opportunity to get back in the mix.

I will have to admit I do miss LDD in some ways.  In drawing exchange, it was easy to just send the drawing.  Now to many issues in what version you are using in my opinion.  But that is not what this post is for.  My $0.02.

Message 18 of 30
dana.probert
in reply to: Sinc

So Sinc, tell me about what has changed about how you deliver or do business because of Civil 3D. Is it just about better tools to do the same thing you always did, or are you able to deliver more? For example- do you work through more iterations or alternatives than you would have with Land Desktop? Are you able to extract more detail from your model?

 

 

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure
Message 19 of 30
dana.probert
in reply to: civilspace

Tell me about the selling internally part... have there been moments where they do see the value in what you are able to deliver with Civil 3D versus Land Desktop? If so, what are those things?

 

 

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure
Message 20 of 30
theminiguy
in reply to: dana.probert

Dana,

I just recently spent 2 days training a operator in New Zealand, from a non Autodesk product to C3D. It would be no different than porting someone from LDD. Yea, so you have a hand full more steps/rules in C3D, yea so it takes a few more minites to do some of the complex models.

But, wham-o, you model is ready to publish straight out of the box with the styles in the template.. LDD and other programs need to have time thrown at them to get the product to look consistant, where as C3D, needs a little bit of time to get the model perfect, and with the power of data shortcuts/Vault Collaboration your ready to batch plot..

So styles are a little bit of an issue for one man teams, but the country kitz fix all of that, unless you need some wiz bang style start small and evolve..

My 2 cents..

 

Cheers.

~~Laptop~~
Quad Core 2.3GHz Intel, 64-Bit, Win 7
16GB Ram, 2GB Graphics Card
256GB SSD

~~AU2009 Speaker~~
CV314-5: AutoCAD® Civil 3D® Design Straight Out of the Box: Going Where the Design Wizards Can't Always Go .....

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