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Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 1 of 14 (827 Views)

827 Views, 13 Replies
12-20-2012 05:30 PM
I've got a closed traverse that has all the elements, but when I try and analyze it, I get the dreaded error: Insufficient angles, distances or points to calculate this loop. I've attached a screen capture of the traverse - can anyone tell me what it lacks? I've worked through Jason Hickey's process as laid out in Being Civil: Creating a Traverse for Adjustment: http://beingcivil.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/03/creating-a-traverse-for-adjustment.html and my screen capture looks very similar to his, but I'm not getting any results. Thanks, Randy

Let me digress a little to be sure I understand this.

From point 38 (102) you have a traverse and you need it adjusted.

Based on the cropped portion of the field book you posted, you have a fixed azimuth between 38 and 101 and fixed coordinates.  Have you performed a manual inverse to be sure the coordinates will match the azimuth.  If not, that could be the cause of the trouble.

The entry in the top of the field book you posted reads:

HORIZ ANGLE RIGHT
VERT ANGLE ZENITH
NEZ 101 5000.0000 5000.0000 100.0000 "SET X CP"
NEZ 2 4938.9680 4683.7770 104.6000 "MAGNL CP"
NEZ 38 4277.4110 4791.1040 90.6600 "LNT PROD CP"
! OPENED BY VERSION 5.2.0, RANGER3 (RS0EC07210).
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 08:40:50.000
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM, HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN 101 5.632 "SET X CP"
AZ 101 38 259.04510

The last line "AZ 101 38 259.04510" is fixing the azimuth between 38 and 101 to the az.

THe "nez" fixes the coordinates. on the points.

IF you want to hold th az between 38 and 101, you can change all of the calls for 102 to 38.  Since 38 is a know points, leave the NEZ on it as it is.

on the "NEZ 101......", change to ?NEZ

Leave the Az 101 38...., but you may want to change it by 180 degrees and make it AZ 38 101, since you are holding 38 fixed.  This will hold the azimuth but let 102 move in distance from 38.

From looking at the least squares input file pt 38 and 102 are not the same

Least Squares Input File
! Generated By Survey
!
! Point Northing Easting Elevation
NEZ 38 4277.411000 4791.104000 90.660000
NEZ 101 5000.000000 5000.000000 100.000000
?NEZ 106 5222.663432 5097.127365 104.607356
?NEZ 113 5127.980464 5404.889410 119.576089
?NEZ 120 4853.871179 5320.602915 120.491150
?NEZ 121 4487.644441 5207.991065 102.858636
?NEZ 102 4588.228149 4880.993018 90.651677
!
! From At To Angle Distance
! Point Point Point Angle Distance Std Error Std Error
AZ 101 38 196.07273 0.00100

As you can see, the preliminary coordinates on 102 are quite different than 38.

Also the az 101 to 38 is quite different too.

These two issues have to be resolved first. When they are resolved, most of the rest of the traverse will fall into place.

Surveyor Lee

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Posts: 59
Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 2 of 14 (805 Views)

12-20-2012 10:26 PM in reply to: RandyBenson
i thought I'd add an uncropped view of the traverse editor showing the coordinate columns.The initial backsight point (#38) is a control point that is identical to station 102, except that it is an initial control point. When I try to use point #102 for an initial backsight point, the traverse analysis throws an error saying that it can't determine the initial azimuth (because 102 is a variable traverse point, not a control point). I'm stuck. Everything looks o.k. - it's a closed traverse and it actually comes very close to closing with no adjustments. But the traverse analysis totally
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Posts: 873
Registered: ‎01-20-2008
Message 3 of 14 (796 Views)

12-21-2012 02:37 AM in reply to: RandyBenson

You need a set-up from 101 Backsighting 102 Turing to 38, then you should be able to close it.

C3D12-13
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Posts: 128
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Message 4 of 14 (768 Views)

12-21-2012 02:36 PM in reply to: RandyBenson

YOu can enter the az if it's known and yes , you should be settting on 38 and turning back to 102 .

you need the angle and distance to close the traverse.

Send me the FBK file and I will try to work with it for you.

Surveyor Lee

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Posts: 59
Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 5 of 14 (758 Views)

12-21-2012 04:34 PM in reply to: SurveyorLee

<settting on 38 and turning back to 102 >

38 _is_ 102. They're at the same coordinate, it's just that 38 is a control point (won't get adjusted) like 101.

the [cropped] FBK file isn't very long:

JOB 1036 MON ! DT12-19-2012 TM06:03:11
UNIT USFOOT DMS
EDM OFFSET 0.0000
SCALE FACTOR 1.0000000
HORIZ ANGLE RIGHT
VERT ANGLE ZENITH
NEZ  101 5000.0000 5000.0000 100.0000 "SET X CP"
NEZ  2 4938.9680 4683.7770 104.6000 "MAGNL CP"
NEZ  38 4277.4110 4791.1040 90.6600 "LNT PROD CP"
! OPENED BY VERSION 5.2.0, RANGER3 (RS0EC07210).
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 08:40:50.000
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN  101 5.632 "SET X CP"
AZ  101 38 259.04510
BS  38 0.00000
PRISM  5.055
! BS CHECK 101 - 2:ZE91.1922,SD428.72,HD ERR= 106.615751, VD ERR= 90.680095
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0001
F1 VA 1002 0.00000 428.720 91.19225 "FD LNT PROD CP"
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 09:00:50.000
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN  101 5.632 "SET X CP"
BS  38 0.00000
PRISM  4.905
! BS CHECK 101 - 102:ZE91.1931,SD428.72,HD ERR= -0.000408, VD ERR= -0.017662
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.055
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.055
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 103 271.37565 164.387 85.00455 "SET 60D CP"
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 09:40:50.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.055
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.055
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 106 187.26345 242.955 89.05065 "FD MAGNL CP"
STN  106 5.580 "FD MAGNL CP"
BS  101 0.00000
PRISM  5.250
! BS CHECK 106 - 101:ZE91.1019,SD242.96,HD ERR= -0.014843, VD ERR= -0.032228
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
F1 VA 366 0.00000 242.960 91.10125 "BSCK A106"
! DATE: 12/19/12, TIME: 13:33:24.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.600 (1.600 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.250
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.600 (1.600 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.250
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 113 263.31585 322.315 87.27320 "FD 4PMMH CP"
STN  113 5.560 "FD 4PMMH CP"
BS  106 0.00000
PRISM  5.160
! BS CHECK 113 - 106:ZE92.4405,SD322.36,HD ERR= -0.005178, VD ERR= -0.015144
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
! BS CHECK 113 - 106:ZE92.4404,SD322.365,HD ERR= -0.00011, VD ERR= -0.013821
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
F1 VA 367 0.00005 322.365 92.43575 "BSCK A113"
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 116 72.23330 40.355 90.51430 "FD PSPKTC"
F1 VA 117 153.18580 36.180 89.04070 "FD LNTTC"
! DATE: 12/19/12, TIME: 14:03:27.000
F1 VA 118 252.24340 40.720 89.49200 "FD LNTTC"
F1 VA 119 333.19190 36.480 92.56290 "FD LNTTC"
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.573 (1.573 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.160
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.573 (1.573 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.160
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 120 269.59270 286.777 89.56535 "FD PKNL CP"
! DATE: 12/19/12, TIME: 14:30:50.000
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.576 (1.576 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN  120 5.567 "FD PKNL CP"
BS  113 0.00000
PRISM  5.170
! BS CHECK 120 - 113:ZE90.1551,SD286.775,HD ERR= -0.005431, VD ERR= -0.010896
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
F1 VA 368 0.00000 286.770 90.15435 "BSCK A120"
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.576 (1.576 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.170
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.576 (1.576 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.170
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 121 179.59575 383.587 92.44030 "FD 4PMMH CP2"
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.524 (1.524 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN  121 5.532 "FD 4PMMH CP2"
BS  120 0.00000
PRISM  5.000
! BS CHECK 121 - 120:ZE87.2643,SD383.54,HD ERR= 0.007975, VD ERR= -0.008194
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
F1 VA 122 0.00000 383.535 87.26405 "BSCK A121"
! DATE: 12/19/12, TIME: 14:58:19.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.524 (1.524 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.524 (1.524 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  5.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 102 270.00195 342.358 92.08555 "FD LNTTC PROD CP"
STN  102 5.490 "FD LNT PROD CP"
BS  121 0.00000
PRISM  4.870
! BS CHECK 102 - 101:ZE88.5005,SD428.715,HD ERR= 0.020611, VD ERR= 0.012632
! BS CIRCLE CHECK : ANGULAR ERR= 0.0000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.484 (1.484 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.870
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.484 (1.484 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.870
F1 VA 101 269.01210 428.712 88.50010 "BSCK A102"
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 13:51:19.000
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 110 173.42390 373.490 91.18165 "FD BM1401871 CP"
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN  102 5.490 "FD LNT PROD CP"
BS  101 0.00000
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.486 (1.486 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.875
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.495 (1.495 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
PRISM  4.905
F1 VA 111 90.58390 342.308 88.03170 "FD 4PMMH CP"
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM,     HR:1.591 (1.591 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM

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Posts: 59
Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 6 of 14 (756 Views)

12-21-2012 04:48 PM in reply to: RandyBenson

I did finally get a solution, using the following:

Initial Station: 101

Initial Backsight: 38

Stations: 106,113,120,121,102

Final Foresight: 101

However, I don't see some of the redundant shots in the .LSI file, probably because we can't use the same point numbers in the data collector file:

!                    Least Squares Input File
!                      Generated By Survey
!
!      Point       Northing        Easting      Elevation
NEZ      38    4277.411000    4791.104000      90.660000
NEZ     101    5000.000000    5000.000000     100.000000
?NEZ     106    5222.663432    5097.127365     104.607356
?NEZ     113    5127.980464    5404.889410     119.576089
?NEZ     120    4853.871179    5320.602915     120.491150
?NEZ     121    4487.644441    5207.991065     102.858636
?NEZ     102    4588.228149    4880.993018      90.651677
!
!    From    At     To                                     Angle    Distance
!   Point  Point  Point           Angle       Distance   Std Error Std Error
AZ           101     38       196.07273                   0.00100
SD           121    102                        342.335                 0.007
VA           121    102        92.02380                   0.00056
A     120    121    102       270.00195                   0.00064
SD           101    106                        242.968                 0.007
VA           101    106        88.54494                   0.00055
A      38    101    106       187.26345                   0.00070
SD           102    101                        428.725                 0.007
VA           102    101        88.45028                   0.00036
A     121    102    101       269.01210                   0.00061
SD           120    121                        383.556                 0.007
VA           120    121        92.38074                   0.00060
A     113    120    121       179.59575                   0.00082
SD           113    120                        286.778                 0.007
VA           113    120        89.49024                   0.00038
A     106    113    120       269.59270                   0.00075
SD           106    113                        322.346                 0.007
VA           106    113        87.20205                   0.00071
A     101    106    113       263.31585                   0.00084

Can I pad them into this input file in the above format, changing the point numbers of the redundant shots and then click 'Process Input File' and have it apply least squares to _all_ my observations?

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Posts: 128
Registered: ‎12-23-2008
Message 7 of 14 (753 Views)

12-21-2012 05:04 PM in reply to: RandyBenson

Yes, you should change the redundant point numbers to the correct point number and re-run the file.

If you have multiple points, you may be able to change them in the raw file and get it to recognize it.  (save the original raw file though).  And to do the least squares adjustment, you will need to create an input file.

It should work fine, except you do not have a definite tie to point 38, your original control point.

Surveyor Lee

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Posts: 59
Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 8 of 14 (685 Views)

12-29-2012 03:13 PM in reply to: SurveyorLee

Thanks for replying and apologies for my delay in responding - I've been on vacation. (Woo Hoo!)

<It should work fine, except you do not have a definite tie to point 38, your original control point.>

Then I'm still missing something fundamental. Point 38 is a _copy_ of point 102. It is only there because I need a backsight direction to the leg of the control traverse between point 101 and point 102 or the routine throws an error. I don't want to use 102 as an initial control point because my understanding is that control points don't get adjusted, and 102 is part of my control traverse loop. I need it to be adjusted with all the other control traverse points.

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Posts: 128
Registered: ‎12-23-2008
Message 9 of 14 (674 Views)

12-29-2012 05:40 PM in reply to: RandyBenson

Let me digress a little to be sure I understand this.

From point 38 (102) you have a traverse and you need it adjusted.

Based on the cropped portion of the field book you posted, you have a fixed azimuth between 38 and 101 and fixed coordinates.  Have you performed a manual inverse to be sure the coordinates will match the azimuth.  If not, that could be the cause of the trouble.

The entry in the top of the field book you posted reads:

HORIZ ANGLE RIGHT
VERT ANGLE ZENITH
NEZ 101 5000.0000 5000.0000 100.0000 "SET X CP"
NEZ 2 4938.9680 4683.7770 104.6000 "MAGNL CP"
NEZ 38 4277.4110 4791.1040 90.6600 "LNT PROD CP"
! OPENED BY VERSION 5.2.0, RANGER3 (RS0EC07210).
! DATE: 12/17/12, TIME: 08:40:50.000
! ACTIVATING TOTAL STATION: TOPCON GPT SERIES MECHANICAL, COM1,1200,EVEN
! TARGET PRISM, HR:1.541 (1.541 + 0.000 OFFSET), PRISM CONST.:0.000MM
STN 101 5.632 "SET X CP"
AZ 101 38 259.04510

The last line "AZ 101 38 259.04510" is fixing the azimuth between 38 and 101 to the az.

THe "nez" fixes the coordinates. on the points.

IF you want to hold th az between 38 and 101, you can change all of the calls for 102 to 38.  Since 38 is a know points, leave the NEZ on it as it is.

on the "NEZ 101......", change to ?NEZ

Leave the Az 101 38...., but you may want to change it by 180 degrees and make it AZ 38 101, since you are holding 38 fixed.  This will hold the azimuth but let 102 move in distance from 38.

From looking at the least squares input file pt 38 and 102 are not the same

Least Squares Input File
! Generated By Survey
!
! Point Northing Easting Elevation
NEZ 38 4277.411000 4791.104000 90.660000
NEZ 101 5000.000000 5000.000000 100.000000
?NEZ 106 5222.663432 5097.127365 104.607356
?NEZ 113 5127.980464 5404.889410 119.576089
?NEZ 120 4853.871179 5320.602915 120.491150
?NEZ 121 4487.644441 5207.991065 102.858636
?NEZ 102 4588.228149 4880.993018 90.651677
!
! From At To Angle Distance
! Point Point Point Angle Distance Std Error Std Error
AZ 101 38 196.07273 0.00100

As you can see, the preliminary coordinates on 102 are quite different than 38.

Also the az 101 to 38 is quite different too.

These two issues have to be resolved first. When they are resolved, most of the rest of the traverse will fall into place.

Surveyor Lee

Valued Contributor
Posts: 59
Registered: ‎09-22-2006
Message 10 of 14 (656 Views)

12-30-2012 09:55 AM in reply to: SurveyorLee

<looking at the least squares input file pt 38 and 102 are not the same>

You're absolutely right -- I completely ignored the azimuth between them. I've gotten in a bad habit from programming a similar routine (minus the least squares) that derives the azimuth by inversing between the coordinate pairs coded to the point numbers.

I'll fix that, and then I need to reformat, re-point-number and insert all my redundant shots into the least squares input file and re-run it.