Transitioning surveyors to Civil 3D

[MaryBell1]

Hello.... I am in need of some advice from surveyors or perhaps a CAD manager using civil 3d. It's time to get our surveyors up and running. I could use some advice as to the easiest way to help them transition.

My background is Civil Eng/CADD Tech but I've done some surveying in the past so I'm as familiar as I need to be for my engineering drawings. I was hired about a year ago to transition the office to C3D and I did that and have put out over 20 projects using 2014/2015, obviously tweaking styles, templates , etc. as I go. As most surveyors are understandably somewhat reluctant to the switch these guys are even more so. It's a very small company, 2 surveyors, 2 engineers and me. 1 engineer and both surveyors are co-owners but they work as if they are completely seperate companies!? Survey has no interest in working as a team and providing drawings that are workable for engineering so we end up redrawing everything. They are currently mostly using LDD 2008. They are field surveyors and their drawings are quite simplistic as they are not drafters and have had no interest in learning LDD features let alone Civil 3D. They don't like automation and are happy to insert 100 tree blocks one by one and utilizing layers 1-4, ptext & dims, have no idea how dimensions work let alone text styles. I'm not criticizing but I want to give a clear picture of what I'm trying to work with. I think the C3D interface is going to blow their minds!

I'd like to know from anyone out there if they have had a similiar experience and what you have learned from it, what you might have done differently, or suggestions in how to move forward, etc.,

1) Does it make sense to create a seperate survey.dwt? In my mind I'm thinking one template for all, but realize a template with all my layers and styles might be a bit overwhelming for the survey crew even though they wont use most of it. I have created one to see if I could get the number of layers, point styles, etc. down to just what they use but then I think about when they hand off the base map drawing to engineering do we take all the linework and surfaces and plop it into the Eng. template or do I try and get everyone to use the same template drawing? I utilize layer filters to keep survey layers seperate to make it a little less overwhelming. I'm not sure how well they will do with layer "4" now being "C-PROP-BDRY" As much as I would like to use a seperate survey template and then use IT as an Xref base dwg the Engineer won't work with XREFS. The way I work presently is that I ignore the survey drawing with the exception of some linework and open their raw file, adjust the point codes and insert them into my C3D template drawing, then rebuild the surface, spend waaayyy to much time swapping and deleting tin lines bcs survey won't work with breaklines and put no forethought into picking up the features in the field. (ok, this time I was sort of criticizing but only bcs I wan't someone to feel my pain)! 😄

2) I have found some excellent youtube videos and have gathered some information for them to use as guides and will be available to sit with them to help them get started if they will let me. Does anyone have links to websites or video that they found particurlary useful? Yes, I'm aware of the tutorials in Civil but don't see them sitting and going through them.

my ideal scenario:

-one template for all
-survey base maps are used as xrefs
-we all work and live in harmony 😄

... I'd love to know how others work.

[johngordon6189]

I have base templates setup for specific clients and in-house tasks.  This keeps the draftpersons and project managers from having to constantly change styles of the points or lablels, description key sets, ambient settings, etc. to produce or conform to what they need.  In my opinion, Civil 3D is not a "Surveyor Friendly" program.  At my firm, we utilize a couple modules from Eagle Point (Surveyors Companion and Data Reduction) to bridge the gap between real world surveyors needs and what Autodesk provides in the toolset (also bridging some learning curve from older versions of Eagle Ponit civil software).  There are other 3rd party vendors out there that have created toolsets to fill the gaps of Civil 3D.

Now having said that, Civil 3D is a good toolset for quick integration of survey data to engineering firms/plans.  I do love being able to create surface data very quickly and be able to amend or edit the surfaces quickly.  

At some point, old dogs do need to learn new tricks or they find themselves on the laying front porch watching the traffic go by.

Template creation takes time, careful consideration and consultation.  The initial setup will be tedious, but once it's done, things go smoothly.

Other consideration is current hardware vs. hardware you will need in order to utilize Civil 3D (updated hardware, drivers, etc.

[IanMcClain]

Hi Mary Bell,

1. Yes, a seperate template pared down to just survey essentials is a good thing. Make it easy on users and don't give them options (read styles) they don't need or could miss-apply. A well configured template cuts down on the processing learning curve for new users; don't force everyone re-invent the styles.

2. Learn to use a the survey database and implement figure prefix database. Most linework/breaklines can be coded with two commands B for begin and BC for begin curve.

Automated linework plus a description key can cut processing time by 50 to 75%.

Seperate templates can be a good thing.

I experienced some growing pains with C3D, and in my opinion it wasn't ready for survey until 2009. Now I couldn't imagine going back. I did one edit job on an LDD surface a few years ago for a client still using that software and the whole time all I could think was "this would be so much easier in C3D".

[MaryBell1]

Thanks for your input John. So you work off of several templates.... I've tried that as well, the problem was that when I wanted to change a style and then realized I what it changed in all the templates I was opening up all four and changing them as needed, it just got too tedious and confusing. For me, I found it easier to have one fully loaded template (keep in mind we are a very small firm and mainly do plats/subdiv./grading.). We use about 5 different types of drawings and all those sheets of various sizes are in my template, the first thing I do is delete what I don't need for my particular project. At some point soon, I will make them all seperate because I am at the point where I'm pretty happy with my point styles and such.

I agree on utilizing 3rd party or other modules (oh I miss eagle point!) and that would have been my suggestion but licenses were bought and paid for before I started so we are going to use them.

The funny thing is they aren't old dogs, they are much younger than me and unfortunately they sign my paycheck (for now ;).

[MaryBell1]

Thanks! Yeah its looking like I need to go back to a separate one. I made one already but I'll go in and try to strip out as much as possible and work with the idea of importing the survey features. Thanks for the input Ian!

Mary

[Jay_B]

Mary,

To add to the great advice you've received, there are at least 3 AU on-demand classes on the Autodesk University website.

It's free, just sign in & view.

AU online tab > classes on demand > "survey" search string.

class #'s C13242, c13704 & C13217-P (2 have video).

Youtube also has quite a bit of content for "survey database".

We use the Survey Database and as previously mentioned, when things are setup properly, it should be more of a step by step process from field to finish. There are occasional Survey Figure edits but with communication between design team & crew the edits will lessen as time passes.

Description Key Set, Point Styles, Point Label Styles, Point Groups & Figure Prefix Database take time to create but increase efficiency.

You may be aware that a Point Group can be setup in your template for "EG surface Points" which will filter out any point codes to be excluded from surface.

The "Figure Prefix Database" will do the same, specifying the linework to be included in EG surface definition, once properties for "use as breakline" Yes / No etc., based on Survey Codes.

Be aware that the default Unit settings for the Survey Database are International Feet. If you work in US Feet the Units need to be specified.

A survey settings file can be created & stored on a Network once Survey settings have been determined.

 IMO, There is no substitute for proper training if they are just starting out.

[Pointdump]

MB,

"Yes, I'm aware of the tutorials in Civil but don't see them sitting and going through them."

Have you tried milk and cookies and a nap blanky? You can't force a child to learn, and you can't spoonfeed a child the knowledge he needs to keep his job. I don't think a dumbed-down template will help either.

"-one template for all
-survey base maps are used as xrefs
-we all work and live in harmony"

A nice dream. I wish you well.

Dave

[antoniovinci]

---

Pointdump wrote:

Have you tried milk and cookies and a nap blanky? You can't force a child to learn, and you can't spoonfeed a child the knowledge he needs to keep his job

---

Holy words, Dave: sometimes and somewhere me and you should meet.
Ever thought about a travel here in the old Europe..?

[MaryBell1]

Thanks Dave!

I realize I can only do so much, I just want to be sure I come away knowing I did everything I could to make the transition successful and what they choose to do with it is up to them. What I've learned since my original post is that the surveyors and the other resistance LS/PE apparently went to a 4 hour introductory survey class a couple of months ago and came away with the impression that they don't need all that S#*! that "she's" setting up, which I can only assume to be templates, layers,styles, point codes, desc keys..... lol, this could very well be a losing battle but then again I'm not there to fight am I.

 ....well, wish me (was gonna say luck) but more patience is was I'll need. Fortunately this isn't my first rodeo!

"I don't think a dumbed-down template will help either".

Would like to hear you thoughts on that.

[Pointdump]

MB,

A CAD manager should be a dictator, and **** well should be heeded. Pound your fist on the table and shout, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!"

Dave

[rl_jackson]

MB,

Here's a white paper that I use in practice daily, (Just survey) it cuts down on the learning curve in some respects, by setting everthing to layer 0. It's a pretty good read and you'd be surprised at how easy it is.

[Pointdump]

RL,

That paper is the best explanation of the hierarchy of layers in styles. A good read!

Dave

[MaryBell1]

RL/ Dave - that IS an excellent read. I wish that would have been front and center 12 months ago when I first opened up Civil 3D, it took me much to long to finally figure that out...all by trial and error, which is basically how I learned the software to begin with, well that, youtube and this forum!. Unfortunately the concept of layers and styles are beyond their interest.

When I initially posted this I tried to give a clear picture of what I'm dealing with to see if anyone else has had a similar experience with people of similiar abilities. Everyone who responded has shared some great advice, but it's for someone like me. And keep in mind these are owners, not staff that can be let go to make room for others who will make happen.

How can I get the best possible outcome for these field surveyors. I am committed to them being successful! There's a glimmer of hope. I have been working with them to change some point codes and be more consistant in there coding.... so that's something. And they mostly almost sometimes always do it! 

[Pointdump]

MB,

You have my deepest sympathy, and I wish you well, but it sure sounds like you're whipping a dead horse.

Dave

[Joe-Bouza]

The first thing I would do is disable all instances of LDT. Then I would take wee baby steps all the way home; set up your template the way you want. They are still going to brute force their way so entice them with a few palettes. start off with predefined lines, arcs, plines, and blocks on palettes to preset layers yadda yadda. Before you know it they wont be able to live with out them. work your way up the food chain adding bit by bit more advanced concepts to the palettes.

Its an Idea. I will admit It hasn't worked for me, but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing I did my best.

Some folks just cant be bothered. Your example is very bewildering being your subjects are principles. good luck.

Enforce item 1 LDT No Mas!

tell them it is no longer supported, the licenses are expired, and get your vendor to coerce them

[tcorey]

Yours is a very common predicament. Many firms work this way. Surveyors have myriad, many valid, reasons for their desire to stay with what works. Firstly, they spend their days in the field, hiking, lugging equipment and swinging sledge hammers. They want to come back to the office and know that they can download and reduce their data with as few hangups as possible. They know Land Desktop works.

One engineer I know really wanted the company to change but, like in your situation, the surveying department wanted to keep doing what worked. So this clever fellow processed the surveyors' data parallel to their efforts for a few days. The first day, it took him an hour and a half too long. The second day the two sides finished concurrently. By the third day, this engineer had the reduction complete and surveyors' drawings produced in Civil 3D in half the time it took the surveyors using Land Desktop. The surveyors capitulated and made the commitment to switch to Civil 3d.

Does your truly pay their surveyors to manually insert blocks that can be inserted automatically? They must be making too much money if they're willing to throw it away like that.

My last comment: Any surveyor who refuses to collect breaklines just doesn't care about doing a good job. Please print this post and leave it on his desk.

Best regards,

Tim

[MaryBell1]

Thanks Tim, I completely understand their desire to stick with what works.... for them, I really do get it. I've just never worked with a group like this and it's a challenge to say the least. one concern is that the one of the two surveyors just doesn't have that technology gene, which is ok, he's a field guy and the other one uses LDD as just a drafting tool (barely), so this transition will be, beyond a doubt, very difficult for him. Which is why I'm reaching out to this community..... all the feedback has been very helpful but I'm still going back and forth about how to proceed since having them be successful is my main goal. Today, I'm leaning towards bypassing the use of figure prefix db, linework codes and survey database to begin with and just for now ease them into points with point codes, styles, layers, etc. but I'm open to any suggestions. One question I had was the use of two different templates, on one hand it would be ideal for survey to have a minimal template with as few layers, styles, as possible. If I do that then when Engineering gets the drawing or base map the linework, points and surface will need to be imported into a fully loaded template or do I just give survey a fully loaded one and hope their heads don't explode!?? I'm not sure what the better scenario is.

And yes, they pay "themselves" to manually place blocks on points... and most of the time they aren't even blocks, they are circles and lines, so I'm not sure if the blocks are exploded on insertion or if they actually draw seperate entities??? I'm soooo afraid to ask since I foolishly asked if they could please use dimensions vs. lines with text and a filled triangle..... yep, and thats not even all of it. They are NOT drafters and we'll just leave it at that.

Thanks again!

[rl_jackson]

MB,

I feel your pain and have a similar situation myself (poor drafiting procedures is what I'll call it). With the size of the company your with, I dont think two template are necessary, but I think you should set things up will all the bells and whistles. This may introduce a lot of additional layers in the existing vs. proposed schema, but that could be resolved with layer filters.

With regards to the linework codes if there not doing that now that is going to be a tough one. I've had to get 4 differnt companies on board with just that (Doing it even now), and its tough at first. But the benefits are huge, as most things can be done in about half the time just by doing coding, and it reduces the amonut of actual fieldnote taken (ie. the field guy doesn't have to be in the cold and writing in the field book at the same time 🙂 ). One thing you would need to look at is the equipment being used comapatible with coding. Some older stuff, and Leica Smartworx just dont cut the mustard. But under the assumption your using a Trimble/Carlson/Surveypro data collection enviroment, your pretty much golden. It's just the training that's required at that point. It starts with the field if they get on board, life becomes super easy. Then it's just getting the training for the office guy, which may require a little bit more time than it should from your comments, but it's doable.

Here's my little bunch list:

1. Get consistent codes from field (VERY IMPORTANT!)

2. Set description keys (Point Styles)/Figure Codes base on #1

3. Train field guy how to code

4. Beat field guy if he deviates from #1 (unless theres a good reason or code doesn't exist)

5. Always inform field guy what was wrong. (If they doint know they'll keep doing it.)

Good Luck

[AllenJessup]

I had similar issues. So I cheated. I told everyone that once 2012 was release that LDC 2009 was no longer supported and would not be installed on any computer. I convinced our Surveyor to take training and pay for it himself. He has now become an expert in Civil 3D and very valuable. I let him create the Survey.DWT so he's happy about how everything works. There are still few minor things that have to be worked out but nothing that takes much time.

I always say training comes first. If the company is serious about the move they have to come up with money for training. It's obvious they have a lot of extra money it they let the shop work like that. It can make a difference when someone sees the program actually being used in person. The best way is to find a trainer who is willing to take your data and show how it should be used. That can be an eye opener even for the bosses.

Unfortunately Surveyors are people and like all people there are some who don't want to deal with any change and some that embrace it.

Allen

[rl_jackson]

"Unfortunately Surveyors are people and like all people there are some who don't want to deal with any change and some that embrace it."

Allen,

That's the quote of the day. 🙂