Time to learn C3D with training vs.no training

[Neilw_05]

I realize this is a highly subjective topic but I would like to get some feedback from those who have experience with these 2 paths so I can present it to management.

Considering we are still in a slow period in our area, management is not wanting to spend resources to train me. Some time ago they allowed me to spend maybe several weeks going through tutorials and the Mastering book. I have also spent a considerable amount of my own time exploring it at home. While I have gained a pretty good understanding of how most of it works, I have only used the software in a very limited capacity in our current production workflow. Bear in mind that we have been using LDT 2004 up until now so I have only limited exposure to all the enhancements to Autocad and Map since then as well.

So now when I am faced with a new task where C3D should be a great time saver I am reluctant to use it because I am afraid I'll encounter problems with the software and get bogged down in looking for workarounds. I've already encountered issues with point clouds, HEC RAS export/import, profile bands, file format conversion, pipes and more. It is not enough to know how the tools work. We also need to know what works and what doesn't.

This is where having experienced support is essential but I don't want to recommend getting training if all it will do is teach me what I already know. What we really need is support for live projects as we go. Yet I don't see us spending a lot of money for support on a case by case basis considering the budget constraints we have.

We have time but no money, yet the amount of time it is taking to learn is agonizingly slow. So what is the best solution?

[Joe-Bouza]

I did trial by fire. It worked out OK There were some hair raising situations and I would have withered away on the vine if not for this forum.

I would say out of respect, that a formal training wouldn't have been a bad thing. Heck I'd take it now to break the bad habits I developed on my own. Hopefully Brian will chime in - I would think that any reseller worth their salt can taylor training classes to all levels of pre existing knowledge.

Talk to your re-seller.

[mathewkol]

You don't need to talk to your own reseller necessarily, just one with some good C3D techs. Not all resellers come equal.

You WILL have stumbles. And it WILL take longer the first couple of times. If management is not on board with these inevitabilities, you have no hope of pleasing them. If they are committed to implementing C3D they need to know and accept this. If they aren't then you'll be using LDT 2004 forever.

That said, you can buy on-call support from many companies who are just a call away when you hit those stumbling blocks. They will help you through them without you wasting too much time trying to reinvent the wheel

If you don't have an excellent DWT alreasdy you'll be behind the 8 ball without it. You can't use C3D without one that works well unless you're not at all converned with the way things look.

Good luck.

[Neilw_05]

@mathewkol wrote:

If management is not on board with these inevitabilities, you have no hope of pleasing them. If they are committed to implementing C3D they need to know and accept this. If they aren't then you'll be using LDT 2004 forever.

That is certainly a problem Matt. There is a considerable disdain for Autodesk based on past experience. It was my hope that I could overcome the prejudice by demonstrating on some live projects the efficiency to be gained from C3D and the newer capabilities in Autocad. Sadly my efforts have backfired because it has typically taken longer to get through a project due to inexperience and the aforementioned problems with the software. It's really a catch 22, they won't spend money if it doesn't make us more efficient, yet it costs money to become more efficient.

Perhaps you are right that this problem is hopeless in this environment. What I really need is a new home.

[BrianHailey]

I was in a similar situation as you at the last place I worked, no budget for training but a deep desire on my part to upgrade with no management support, which is why I found a new home. You can learn the software on your own but having someone point out the why you do it this way and best practices that you don't find in a book is priceless in my opinion. (Discaimer: For those that don't know me, my kids eat because people pay me to train them on Civil 3D.) Look at all the training centers in your area (where are you?) and pick the best one. Don't like any of them? Find one that will allow you to sit in on the class virtually (we do that if you are interested). As you have found out for yourself, you can learn it on your own, it just takes a REALLY long time (first Civil 3D class I was ever in I taught so I speak from experience). Best of luck to you and if you want to chat, first name dot last name at CAD-1 dot com or I have a gmail account that starts with c3dplus.

[rnoyes]

Neil:

Working for a company that is coming to the end of our transition (as of this month no new projects will be created in LDD) I can relate to what you are going thru.  My advice for training and implementation breaks down like this:

1) Get support from above (management not a diety), I didnt realize just how critical it was, we ended up having some groups who adopted and transitioned quickly, we had others who did not because managers either made it easy to avoid learning the new tool or flat out encouraged people to not upgrade.

2) Develop a workflow guidline teach this.  If you dont do this EVERYONE will find a different approach to working on projects so you will have a unique approach to every job, not a recipe for ling term success.

3) Make sure your template is ready with the styles you need for the majority of your work.  It will never be completed, but making sure it is well on it's way will help you be successful.

4) Develop a training plan the fits your design approaches.  No reseller will know what you do for work and how your team approaches it day 1.  So document what you do when you do talk to a reseller about support.  We are currently working thru our training for the masses here.  That means one training program for our surveyors, one for our land development designers, and a third for our transportation engineering group since all 3 groups have very different workflows we needed to address.  Spending a day learning about points when it is a tool you rarley use in your workflow is not only a waste of time but also can turn people off to the upgrade.  We worked with our reseller to develop training agendas specific to our workflows.  They use our template, with our data when our staff is being trainined.  Also we provide them with our file breakouts and file names to discuss during the training.  It helps pu tthe staff in their comfort zone when learning something new.

5) Follow training up with support as projects get going.  I would say I spend the majority of my day now helping people who are doing their first or second project in C3D.  After that I only hear from them as they expand their skill sets and mess with new tools.

I realize this is a lot of info and probably none of it is shocking.  We have found here at least that the key points for staff were, management support, workflow, training based on workflow, follow up project mentoring.  The biggest thing was getting people beyond the point of saying "I have to model everything now that I have a modeling tool".  Until they got past there it was too daunting of a task for anyone to want to undertake.  We looked at our workflows, made changes where it made sense with the future vision being modelling everything but our short term goal being getting everyone on the new tool.  So for example the small gas station we do we don't treat the same as our campus expansion.  The gas teams have a workflow that has made them very successful at completeing that work and making money on the project.  We showed them a couple features in Civil 3D that will help, then said let's maintain much of your workflow.  The large more iterative jobs we spend more time showing the teams the power of the dynamic model.

Sorry about the novel. but this is what has worked for us.  Another thing we did was look at when we could train when billable time would not be impacted (nights & lunches).  I have been amazed at how willing people have been to "donate" their time to learn about the tools they use everyday.  Makes you feel good about the commitment the people have to improve themselves.

[Neilw_05]

moyes,

Thank you for sharing your experience and suggestions. I noted some of the challenges I have faced with management, particularly in regards to having to build models for everything.

Prior to my coming on board here they did not build models at all. As we do primarily site design the typical workflow was to take an architect's site and building layout, hand draw contours and type manually calc'ed spot elevations on it. It is a simple and efficient way to get an initial plan. However as we all know, that approach breaks down when a design needs to be changed. Everything has to be manually recalculated and re-drawn. Also, without models most of the design tools that depend on them (i.e.. cross sections, volumes, slope analysis, stakeout, etc) are useless. As I was used to building models (in LDT) and depended on the models for those reasons, I used them on the projects I worked on. Partly because of the nature of Land Desktop, it took me longer to get an initial design ready and it also took longer to edit and update the models. Consequently management has not been all that impressed with this workflow. They can see and understand the benefits from building models but it hasn't proven to be any more profitable.

Over the years I have been evaluating Civil 3D and Bentley's Power Civil to see if I can find a more efficient way to build these models to benefit from the advantages they bring. Management has been willing to invest in the cost of the software for me but they don't feel it is worthwhile to invest any more in this venture due to the economy. If I can make these tools improve my/our efficiency then they'd be happy but unless they see a significant advantage, they are not going to spend the large sums required to implement it company wide at this time.

So my dilemma is I need to become efficient on my own. It is my hope that by doing so they will see how we can become more efficient and profitable by implementing new technology and thus will be more open to considering the investment required. So far progress has been too slow and the time I have invested has not paid off.

Considering the amount of personal time I have invested in learning all this software (Microstation, Power Civil, Civil 3D and aIl the enhancements to Autocad and Map since 2004), I am exhausted and wishing for some kind of fast track to productivity.

[Sinc]

I don't think there's a really easy answer to this question, when you have short-sighted "moneybags".

All I can say is that, about two months ago, we hired on a new C3D Survey Tech at Edward-James Surveying.  I've been able to work with her on a continual basis, yet continuing to do my own work (and only working part-time at EJ Surveying, spending half my time working on Quux Software stuff).  And she's really an Engineer, not a Surveyor, so I've had to teach a bunch of "Survey" concepts.  Yet working with her just a few hours a day over two months, she's far more productive than some of the people in our other office (that I haven't been able to train), even though those others have been using C3D for years.

I may be a bit of an extreme, in that most people don't have someone like me "on-staff", but I've seen how fast I can get a C3D CAD tech up to speed, vs. letting them figure most of it out on their own.  In one case, a couple of months makes a highly-skilled C3D tech.  In the other, four years makes an average C3D tech who still struggles with many things.

[Neilw_05]

I think my/our strategy is similar to yours in that once I get proficient I would be the in house "go to" person for the rest of staff. The problem is I need a "go to" person myself. Perhaps they should fire me and hire one.

[sjg]

Come on Neil, wouldn't you rather be the "Go To" person. Just from this discussion you posted, you probably have 6 or 7 people that are willing to help in any way they can. I am no expert but in my short time probably a year and a half since moving to Civil 3d, from Survcadd 2010 loaded on Autocad 2000i, I just can't get enough of what the program has to offer. It was literally like getting a new game when you were a kid, actually I still play video games, just the excitement of using and trying new stuff you never used before. Who nows how much time I spent at home reading and viewing videos on youtube or Autodesk University website. Thats our job, to find the best and most effecient way to use the programs we have at hand. With our learning from others, we can become the teacher. Did a little rambling there, but my point is get a little excited about the program and what it can offer and learning it will come easier. At least for me it did.

[Neilw_05]

I'll talk to management about getting per incident support. I may be posting a request for services.

[mathewkol]

Sinc is right. By the sounds of it he has a winner of a colleague however. Some people are just better at picking these things up no matter how good the trsiner. Sometime you can spend the time training an individual and for whatever reason they just don't get it where someone else does get it. Sometimes you have to be lucky.

[Neilw_05]

I consider myself quite capable of learning on my own. I've taught myself every bit of software I've ever used including Autocad, Land Desktop/Civil Design/Survey/Raster Design, Map, ArcGIS, Microstation, Power Civil, MS Access, DBASE and more. For the past 4 years I've put most of my effort into learning Microstation and Power Civil (I had zero prior experience with Microstation), mainly because of the deficiencies, stability and performance issues I'd encountered in C3D up to that time (2007). While I've continued to evaluate C3D up until today I've always felt the Bentley product had the overall advantage. However I've not gained the efficiency I was looking for with that product and now that C3D has overcome some of the obstacles that were stumbling me I am ready to make more use of it. What has been a major hindrance for me is I have to translate all my work to Land Desktop for final production since no one else can work in these other products. This wipes out most most of the productivity gains that can be had.

Regrettably after all this time and effort I am now having to start learning all the trouble areas and workarounds for C3D, as well as all the enhancements to ACAD (dynamic blocks, sheet set manager, annotation scale, fields, CUI etc.) and the enhancements to Map to boot. Believe me, there is A LOT to learn in each of these products. I am just plain burned out.

P.S. What is really pathetic about this whole process is I've never been able to have a product demonstrated using a realistic dataset and workflow to see what it's true limitations are.

[907Trekker]

I could go on and on about this topic and even more regarding the "P.S." in your last post but I'll just try to get to the point.

I think that the best use of the company's dollar when implementing is to allow a power user, probably you, to use the software for day-to-day real life applications and become as familiar with it as possible.  Or several if the company is large enough.  Hopefully they can remain at least somewhat billable.  Let them use the forums, help menu, and autocad university to get a fairly solid understanding of how to use the software.  Then send them off to training to learn all of those dumb glitches in the program, and hopefully some misc. tips and tricks along the way.  After that they can be the "go to" guys for the other users in the company.  I do the same thing as Sinc with several people at my company. If there is something I can't answer, they can usually work on something else while I go crazy trying to find the solution.

In my experience, it just takes a few hours of my time every week to get several people relatively efficient using C3d.  Some mornings I find a lot of hair on my pillow.

Of course nothing is possible unless your company realizes that it takes money to implement new software.

Oh, there are some trainers that will work with your actual projects, but watch out because some of them do such a bad job that you will never be able to convince anybody to use the software ever again.

- Mark 

[Sinc]

Always feel free to bug me about anything you need to know.  I feel I already owe you, for the help you've given me with Bentley/Microstation.

And I'm always available on an hourly basis, doing customized one-on-one training via something like GoToMeeting.  It often works best to do an hour at a time...  (web meetings that last any longer than that, most people suffer brain-fry and get diminishing returns).   But I know C3D well enough that I can save HUGE amounts of brain-fry for most people, even in just a few one-hour sessions.

C3D has a huge number of problems.  But I think it's also probably the best solution available right now, IF you can manage all its quirks...

[Sinc]

---

@mathewkol wrote:
Sinc is right. By the sounds of it he has a winner of a colleague however.

---

It's possible we're pretty lucky there.  But to throw all stereotypes out the window, she's an Engineer in her 50's who had only been using LDD, yet is still picking up C3D at a very fast rate (with my training).  So much for the idea that only young people with no training in LDD are the only fast-adopters of C3D.  But we also had someone else we hired on, and then quit after 4 days, because he didn't want to learn all this stuff.  So I suppose a lot of it really does depend on the individual...

[Jeff_M]

Hey, wait a minute...I'm well over 50 (ok, I wasn't quite 50 when I started with C3D) and I think I picked it up fairly quickly 🙂 I'm firmly convinced it's more a "state of mind and/or lack of support from higher ups" than it is most anything else which keeps people from being productive with C3D. Sure C3D has issues, but EVERY product I've used to do my job since I got into this profession in 1973 has had issues. My customization folder for LDT was massive, for C3D it's much smaller thanks to SincpacC3D...but that is the beauty of Autodesk products...we CAN add our own customizations to bridge the gap of what the developers see and we, as users, see as being 'required' for our jobs.

And for the record, I know someone a few years older than me (ok, some say they'd have retired before that age) and I think HE has picked C3D up quite well, long before most of the rest of us. 

Spoiler

Yes, Bill, that is for you. 🙂

[Neilw_05]

I really appreciate your offer Richard. Your expertise in Survey alone will be a great help.

I've dabbled in the survey module a bit and tried to use it on a couple of small projects. One thing that was troublesome was undertstanding how to manually edit the survey figures and update the database with the changes. Eventually I just abandoned using it. It probably has an easy solution but that was a case where a "go to" person would have been a big help.

As to programming, I have wanted to get into that but I'm relegating it to a lesser priority until I get thoroughly familiar with everything else.

I'll get in touch with you when I run into a snag. And of course I'm always willing to help with anything I can.

[Neilw_05]

Mark,

Your comments about using the software is just where I've been. The company allows me to use the forums and has me on Subscription so I can access AU content, which I do use. It is a great way to learn workarounds (the AU course on how to get around the problems with the HEC-RAS tools would have saved me a day of wasted effort if I'd known about it).

In spite of all the help available online, I really need a go to person, someone who knows all the tricks and problems and can look at a project and my strategy for tackling it and tell me "use this approach, here are the problems you will encounter, and here is how to get around them".

I have one surpervisor who has been supporting me in using the new software on my projects. So far we've had mixed results due to the lack of live support. I am hoping I can get him to advocate hiring per incident support for a couple of projects in the near future. Our reseller has a Gold rating so we may try them. How does one go about finding someone who has expertise in our types of projects?

[Neilw_05]

If anyone is interested in taking on one of my challenges, please see this post:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/AutoCAD-Civil-3D/Tiered-wall-assembly/td-p/3394803