Survey & Civil 3D Frustration

[lctilley]

Is there a way that I edit the actual RAW data in Civil 3D? I know I can edit the Fieldbook, even though I still find it cumbersome, unless one is an actual surveyor and understands all of the terminology. What happens for the everyday survey drafter? How are they supposed to handle little things like adjusting a point, or setting a point? How much production time and by extension profit, are we going to lose trying to learn how to manipulate our field data from the survey crews, not to mention having to teach everyone else how to do it?

I'm sure you can sense the frustration here. We have been trying for the past 16 months to use Civil 3D exclusively. It hasn't happened yet. We have spent many thousands of dollars on training and time dedicated to setting up the templates and styles and the hundreds of settings that are involved in each one. Don't get me wrong, for the most part I love the software. I like the actual Civil Engineering part. It still has some issues but we have learned to make it walk and talk in our office. But that's not all we do. We are a Land Surveying office too. We had actually got pretty good at producing surveys in 06, even though parcels still force closure and writing a legal description can be a nightmare, so much so that we quit trying. We are now looking into 3rd party software that will let us work with the RAW data from the survey crews and maybe make our lives easier and raise our profit margin at the same time. We just cannot afford to spend any more money trying to make something work that doesn't seem to want to cooperate.

How about it Autodesk, can you help us out with this? How about trying to take some of the confusion and complication out of this for us? I have been a user and supporter of AutoCAD for over 18 years now so I think I have grounds to complain a little. Now, I will continue to fight my way through this and find a way to make it work for us with a profit margin that my bosses can live with or until they decide that the huge monetary investment is just not worth continuing and they move us to another software that will work better for us. I know that many of the people on the discussion group are re-sellers and they have been a great help, but many of us have to use this software every day, for 8 to 12 hours a day and the bottom line is, without us, you guys don't make as much profit, right?

If there is anyone out there that has all of this figured out please let me know so we can get in touch with you. I will be glad to take it all back if someone who actually uses this stuff day after day can tell me face to face, or on the phone that they use it with complete success and can help me figure it out too. So how about it?

[anthony.governanti]

So after you have the JOB file "connected" it opens the data in a table
format. You can simply double click any of the values and edit it before it
gets converted. See attached screen capture.

--
Anthony Governanti
Autodesk, Inc.
Visit my blog: www.autodesk.com/wickedcoolstuff
I dig it! Do you? Join the Civil 3D Community Now!
http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com/
wrote in message news:5369098@discussion.autodesk.com...
Anthony, you say that the Trimble Link can edit the RAW data before it gets
converted? How? I have the latest download for the Trimble Link and I don't
see anything that says anything about a RAW file, much less editing one.

[anthony.governanti]

Actually, you can use the JOB file I gave you with the demo set, and just
create a new Connection using the "Create new Device" button on the Trimble
Import Job window. Then select Survey Data Card, and then browse to the
Job's folder. Then you open the "new Device" which replicates "connecting
to a DC" by browsing to the JOB file.

--
Anthony Governanti
Autodesk, Inc.
Visit my blog: www.autodesk.com/wickedcoolstuff
I dig it! Do you? Join the Civil 3D Community Now!
http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com/
"Jason Hickey" wrote in message
news:5369105@discussion.autodesk.com...
governa wrote:
> In Trimble Link, the conversion of the JOB file to FBK happens after the
> JOB
> is "downloaded". It may look fairly seamless if you are connected to a
> DC,
> as once connected, you simply pick the JOB file on the device and then it
> opens in an editor. Once you select OK from that editor, it does the
> conversion, and gives a window with the FBK file's saved location and some
> steps for importing it in Civil 3D. I think you have the option to
> alternatively just download the JOB to disk, and then work with it from
> there. This is why you need to create a new "connection" that uses a
> local
> path instead of a connection to a DC.
>
> Does that answer the question?
>

Very much so. It means to test this, I'd need both a DC and a JOB file
on that DC 😉

--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP2
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor

www.civil3d.com

[Anonymous]

governa wrote:
> Actually, you can use the JOB file I gave you with the demo set, and just
> create a new Connection using the "Create new Device" button on the Trimble
> Import Job window. Then select Survey Data Card, and then browse to the
> Job's folder. Then you open the "new Device" which replicates "connecting
> to a DC" by browsing to the JOB file.
>

I'll try that this weekend. It's off to plan an ACEC Golf Tournament
this afternoon 😉

--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP2
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor

www.civil3d.com

[Anonymous]

No such thing as extra beer.

John P.

[Anonymous]

Notepad works well, also. 😉

...if you're careful, of course.

wrote in message news:5369333@discussion.autodesk.com...
So after you have the JOB file "connected" it opens the data in a table
format. You can simply double click any of the values and edit it before it
gets converted. See attached screen capture.

[lctilley]

Anthony, thanks for that bit of information. I will try that first thing Monday morning. If I can make it work and show it to our PLS in a way that he will understand, my worries are very close to being over, for the most part anyway.
Thank again and I will let you know what comes of it.

[lctilley]

Anthony, the information that you gave me works great. Now I've got to figure out how to present it to my PLS in such a manner that he can be satisfied with. I have gotten it to do the line work for me also, however I do have a question. Is it possible to have a "figure" close? For instance, when I have a figure drawn it leaves the last segment out. Is there a way to do something like closing a polyline on these?

[anthony.governanti]

Yes, but I think it has to be added as a command to do it automatically on
import.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=2883038&linkID=2476881

Once its in the drawing you'd have to explode and then close as a polyline,
the redefine as a figure.

--
Anthony Governanti
Autodesk, Inc.
Visit my blog: www.autodesk.com/wickedcoolstuff
I dig it! Do you? Join the Civil 3D Community Now!
http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com/
wrote in message news:5370877@discussion.autodesk.com...
Anthony, the information that you gave me works great. Now I've got to
figure out how to present it to my PLS in such a manner that he can be
satisfied with. I have gotten it to do the line work for me also, however I
do have a question. Is it possible to have a "figure" close? For instance,
when I have a figure drawn it leaves the last segment out. Is there a way to
do something like closing a polyline on these?

[Matt.Anderson]

And if we get a "Unable to converty file."

Database Open Failed. File:....0245.tic...

This missing TIC file is in the drawing saved location path. What is it that I am missing. There are no tic files where we downloaded the file off the data collector.

Matthew Anderson
anderson at jaseng.com
C3d 07 SP2

[anthony.governanti]

Is this while using the Trimble Link? if so, try saving the drawing first,
then connecting again.

--
Anthony Governanti
Autodesk, Inc.
Visit my blog: www.autodesk.com/wickedcoolstuff
I dig it! Do you? Join the Civil 3D Community Now!
http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com/
wrote in message news:5371724@discussion.autodesk.com...
And if we get a "Unable to converty file."

Database Open Failed. File:....0245.tic...

This missing TIC file is in the drawing saved location path. What is it
that I am missing. There are no tic files where we downloaded the file off
the data collector.

Matthew Anderson
anderson at jaseng.com
C3d 07 SP2

[AussieHans]

I agree with the sentiments of the above two posts entirely. Thinking logically, shouldn't a new system try to provide connectivity to existing standards? Surely it is easier for AutoCAD programmers to take a SDR or Trimble or GRE file and write an import routine, as they know best how to deal with the data that is being imported within their own system.

10 years ago we uploaded and downloaded from the instrument directly into the software, this operation so brief it was never worth putting on a timesheet. Now the operation has changed where we use perhaps one tool to download, another to convert SDR to FBK or RAW or RW5 and a third to reduce the converted data, a further operation to transfer the points to Civil3D. So what used to take 30 seconds now takes up to half an hour as we may also need to edit data to make up for losses in the conversion processes. Plus the frustration. Unfortunately surveyors are landed with the problem of making various systems talk to each other, and because of dealing with two to three different vendors in the process need to deal with the inevitable buck passing when problems arise. The IT expertise now needed for the same exercise has blown completely out of proportion. Processes systems that have steeper and longer learning curves than previous ones are a step backwards.

I think the relevant programmers should have a look at some of the older systems, get into the field with a surveyor, then process the information and think hard whether they are actually providing the super efficient systems the marketing people let us believe.

[Matt.Anderson]

Yes. I can get and browse the JOB files from the "Data Card". However, once I select the JOB file, it attempts to "Connect" when it error's out.

Matthew Anderson

[Anonymous]

Very well said, Hans.

I think I'm not well like here because I've bashed the marketing folks a
bit. I think this a key factor.....get marketing away from decision making.
Let the techies drive the product and leave marketing out until it's
finished......."here, sell this".

Side note on the RAW file: It's a very simple, straight forward format,
from what I've found. The hardest part is deciding what to do with stored
points, etc., particularly when field personel haven't done things the way
the TDS folks intended. Nothing approaching insurmountable, but requires
some serious thought/planning to handle. If a two-bit hack of a programmer
like me can get SSs processing within a couple of (parital) days, could a
reliable conversion tool really be that tough to handle? (If I continue
developing what I have and feel comfortable that it does what it is supposed
to, I will certainly share it.)

To C3D's credit, I'm very happy with how easily I could create the point
data from within VBA. (Not within a Survey DB, just straight into C3D.)

wrote in message news:5371938@discussion.autodesk.com...

I think the relevant programmers should have a look at some of the older
systems, get into the field with a surveyor, then process the information
and think hard whether they are actually providing the super efficient
systems the marketing people let us believe.

[nate-hunt]

I would try installing the latest trimble data transfer. (For the unable to convert error) trimble link uses shared files including files that need updated with new collector formats.

and for closing figures? type "close " before your figure code...

-Nate

[anthony.governanti]

Well, I guess this "marketing" guy will just have to stop relaying the
feedback found on this discussion group to the "techies" as they can make
those decisions for themselves. I'll make sure to tell the Product Managers
too that there job just got a lot easier too, as the development team should
have no problems from this point forward deciding what the product needs.

Jeeze, my job just got a lot easier, I think I can finally catch up on some
reading I've been missing out on.

--
Anthony Governanti
Autodesk, Inc.
Visit my blog: www.autodesk.com/wickedcoolstuff
I dig it! Do you? Join the Civil 3D Community Now!
http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com/
"TomD" wrote in message
news:5372205@discussion.autodesk.com...
Very well said, Hans.

I think I'm not well like here because I've bashed the marketing folks a
bit. I think this a key factor.....get marketing away from decision making.
Let the techies drive the product and leave marketing out until it's
finished......."here, sell this".

Side note on the RAW file: It's a very simple, straight forward format,
from what I've found. The hardest part is deciding what to do with stored
points, etc., particularly when field personel haven't done things the way
the TDS folks intended. Nothing approaching insurmountable, but requires
some serious thought/planning to handle. If a two-bit hack of a programmer
like me can get SSs processing within a couple of (parital) days, could a
reliable conversion tool really be that tough to handle? (If I continue
developing what I have and feel comfortable that it does what it is supposed
to, I will certainly share it.)

To C3D's credit, I'm very happy with how easily I could create the point
data from within VBA. (Not within a Survey DB, just straight into C3D.)

.

[Anonymous]

Hi Tom,

Further side note on RAW files.

Eac of the manufacturers has their own version of a RAW file. They are all
different. When you are only dealing with one instrument and one download
option, you will get RAW files which possibly can be interpreted without
documentation by experiment and knowledge of the data.

There is potential for all manufacturers to forget everything but LandXML
format and make life simple for everybody, but in the meantime we will
continue to suffer from havng to use primitive technology like data
transformation programs and unless you buy something better - the limited
function 'Softdesk' fieldbook file.


--
Regards


Laurie Comerford
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3dtools.com
"TomD" wrote in message
news:5372205@discussion.autodesk.com...
Very well said, Hans.

I think I'm not well like here because I've bashed the marketing folks a
bit. I think this a key factor.....get marketing away from decision making.
Let the techies drive the product and leave marketing out until it's
finished......."here, sell this".

Side note on the RAW file: It's a very simple, straight forward format,
from what I've found. The hardest part is deciding what to do with stored
points, etc., particularly when field personel haven't done things the way
the TDS folks intended. Nothing approaching insurmountable, but requires
some serious thought/planning to handle. If a two-bit hack of a programmer
like me can get SSs processing within a couple of (parital) days, could a
reliable conversion tool really be that tough to handle? (If I continue
developing what I have and feel comfortable that it does what it is supposed
to, I will certainly share it.)

To C3D's credit, I'm very happy with how easily I could create the point
data from within VBA. (Not within a Survey DB, just straight into C3D.)

wrote in message news:5371938@discussion.autodesk.com...

I think the relevant programmers should have a look at some of the older
systems, get into the field with a surveyor, then process the information
and think hard whether they are actually providing the super efficient
systems the marketing people let us believe.

[lctilley]

Anthony, I think my problem is with the Trimble Link. Apparently it doesn't translate the "close" and some of the other line codes correctly. I will find a way to work around it until they do. ANother question for you; Now that I have all of this more or less working now, is there a way to attach some kind of attribute to the point code so that they field crews can tell me what size and type pipes are for example?

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I tested Trimble link some years ago when the product was first released and
pointed out to them the deficiencies in their conversion to field book
files. It seems they still haven't bothered to fix it. I wouldn't hold my
breath while waiting.


--
Regards


Laurie Comerford
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3dtools.com

wrote in message news:5373200@discussion.autodesk.com...
Anthony, I think my problem is with the Trimble Link. Apparently it doesn't
translate the "close" and some of the other line codes correctly. I will
find a way to work around it until they do. ANother question for you; Now
that I have all of this more or less working now, is there a way to attach
some kind of attribute to the point code so that they field crews can tell
me what size and type pipes are for example?

[Matt.Anderson]

Okay. I think I have this figured out somewhat. We have a mixture of data collectors that run both TDS Survey Pro and Trimble TSCe Survey Controller.

They both output a JOB format. They all download to the same directory. They look the same. Most of the people in the office ignore them and use the TXT file.

See the reply I got from Trimble below:
Matthew,
Survey Controller .JOB format is different than a TDS .JOB format.
There are some system limitations that you should note when using the Trimble Link software:
The software only operates with version 7.00 or later of the Trimble Survey Controller software.
Regards,
Trimble Support

I reasoned that as some of the JOB files we have downloaded are easily read by Springer Connect while others are just gibberish and give inaccurate results.

To echo Jason Hickey's post on Civil3d.com - TDS doesn't seem to be the way to go. There will need to be an intermediate FBK generating program (old Trimble standalone link or Foresight DXM) to convert to FBK to get observations into the survey database.

Do I continue to ignore the JOB/RAW files and just import the reduced coordinates? or do I attempt to fix this.

Matthew Anderson

[Anonymous]

Laurie Comerford wrote:

> Eac of the manufacturers has their own version of a RAW file. They are all
> different. When you are only dealing with one instrument and one download
> option, you will get RAW files which possibly can be interpreted without
> documentation by experiment and knowledge of the data.
>
> There is potential for all manufacturers to forget everything but LandXML
> format and make life simple for everybody, but in the meantime we will
> continue to suffer from havng to use primitive technology like data
> transformation programs and unless you buy something better - the limited
> function 'Softdesk' fieldbook file.


That's been my discussion all along - you can have 10 FBK files and
they're all different formats. To be fair, however, how can Autodesk
be held responsible for figuring out *ALL* those different formats? I
think the surveying world needs to cry out for some sort of standard,
and feel as if LandXML would be Nirvana. Once that gets done, the
survey database would be an incredible tool...not that it isn't already,
but it'd be better 😉


--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP2
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor

www.civil3d.com