Community
Civil 3D Forum
Welcome to Autodesk’s Civil 3D Forums. Share your knowledge, ask questions, and explore popular AutoCAD Civil 3D topics.
cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Returning to 2006 revisited

23 REPLIES 23
Reply
Message 1 of 24
AussieHans
200 Views, 23 Replies

Returning to 2006 revisited

Reply From: James Wedding
Date: Jun/29/06 - 11:06 (EST)Reply
Re: Returning to 2006

Bunk, you paid for implementation, get it. You claim your reseller knows their stuff, yet you're willing to go through the hassle of rolling back a full release instead of waiting for a SP or using the workaround?

Bollocks. You're just tired of waiting for a silver platter. Should you get one? Perhaps, but there are plenty of people making the jump, you're justmaking excuses. You invested the money, just invest the time.

You really want results? Quit bitching in a public, not even officially
supported forum. Get into Beta, e-mail the people that offered assistance, offer up some reproducible errors, do anything you like, but do something more than *****. You'll get a sympathetic ear in these groups, but you certainly seem to want more. That's just not going to happen.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Dear Mr James Wedding

You guys are unbelievable at times. What can the support agents do ? Write their own software patches? Change the program code? The software is gammy, thats the reality. It crashes because of inherent bugs, nothing any fine tuning or fiddling of installation or more training will sort out.

Expecting a reasonable Civil3D 2007 of similar stability as 2006 is not expecting stuff on a silver platter. Geeez: Raise your standars!!

I spent 14 days almost full time to do the migration/implementation, reinstalling, trying, clean reinstalling, trying, sending error reports, the whole thing. We cannot afford more time, I'm sorry. Bottom line. You know zip about what went on in our office.

I don't ask a client to come in and help me finish his job for him after he has paid me upfront. So no way am I obliged to get involved in AutoCAD Beta testing to get a better service.

Its guys like you that propogate this myth that its OK to put a package with bugs on the market, that its OK to let the client run into deadline and financial problems with his job due to buggy software, that it's OK to use customers as debuggers. That it's OK to supply a Patch for a Hotfix for SP1A to fix SP1 for release 2007.

IT'S NOT OK.

What do I want? AutoCAD to get a message. And I believe its working, just look at the length the "Returning to 2006 post". Keep going mate, you’re doing me a big favour.

Yep, bit of misuse of the forum perhaps. But then AutoCAD using little old me to debug the software, bit of abuse there too I dare say…on and off FOR 21 YEARS NOW.
23 REPLIES 23
Message 2 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGHT that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put software on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 3 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 4 of 24
nzeeben
in reply to: AussieHans

I still agree with James. The guys writing the code are definatly reading
what we have to say, but they really only need one thing that is fairly
short supply for them and that is time. I would hazard to guess the only
people that can expand the timeline or hit the hold button on a product
release are those sitting in a nice corner office somewhere in San Rafael.
Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands of
NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about? I don't.
Depending on the size of your(meaning any of you reading this) company if
you happen to be what autodesk considers a "Major Account" call up your
reseller, ask for a meeting with the local adesk rep Major accounts have
impact(I am not saying the little guys dont, they are just smaller). They
are going to be able to push things to the correct people much more
effectively. My two cents.
Nick

"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5222919@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 5 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

I'm sorry you feel that way, Nick. If this forum is only for the resolution
of minor technical problems as you and James suggest then why call it a
discussion group? Well, here's another sound for you - resentment. I resent
the fact that anyone would let me (and others) languish over known issues
they know we can't fix and I resent the implication that the users are
somehow at fault for not being more accepting of a few "minor" defects. I'm
as patient and understanding as the next guy, Nick, but I think the promise
is being stretched a bit thin here. The Civil 3D leadership is aware of the
condition of our software - including the higher-ups you mentioned. I think
my original targets were fairly accurate.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
wrote in message news:5222998@discussion.autodesk.com...
I still agree with James. The guys writing the code are definatly reading
what we have to say, but they really only need one thing that is fairly
short supply for them and that is time. I would hazard to guess the only
people that can expand the timeline or hit the hold button on a product
release are those sitting in a nice corner office somewhere in San Rafael.
Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands of
NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about? I don't.
Depending on the size of your(meaning any of you reading this) company if
you happen to be what autodesk considers a "Major Account" call up your
reseller, ask for a meeting with the local adesk rep Major accounts have
impact(I am not saying the little guys dont, they are just smaller). They
are going to be able to push things to the correct people much more
effectively. My two cents.
Nick

"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5222919@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 6 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

I apologize to everyone involved, but I can't help myself.
First off I am trying to get this product on the floor.
I believe that it can make our business more effective.
I would not attempt this without James's help.
My complaint is simply why should I need James to implement the product? I pay close to 80K a year to Autodesk for their products. They send me DVD's with the latest version and start working on service pack's.
I can call my reseller for support, which usually results in a telecon than offers " We escalated this to Autodesk and I will keep you informed."
To illustrate this point I received an e-mail yesterday from a guy on my reseller's tech support staff with a fix for a Viz 2007 deployment image issue. I couldn't remember it. Checked the deployment site and there it was. Guess I fixed it before.
I understand that Civil 3D is a sea change and that much is involved in moving to this product. I just wish Adesk would offer something besides a webinar every week and a poorly supported reseller network.
Hans is part right.
James is part right.
Nick is part right
And Mike is part right.
And maybe even I'm part right.
Message 7 of 24
nzeeben
in reply to: AussieHans

Mike, I see the forums as a place where the users can get help, typically
from other users. To be perfectly honest I think we are very lucky in here
with how much involvement we get from the Dev team on a day to day basis,
alot of other groups dont get nearly the same level of interaction. We can
discuss the merits or non merits of the annual release cycle till we are all
blue in the fingers, I just don't think it accomplishes much in this
setting. Like I suggested early if you are unhappy take it through a
channel where you can actually expect a response. The discussion groups are
an open forum and people can choose to participate or not, seems to me the
people that hold the keys to changing the root of the problems are choosing
not to participate. I didn't say I thought the product was in great shape
defect wise, it still needs more work, from where I sit though Dev is
getting things to us as fast as they possibly can with the resources they
have available. I guess my sole point in all of this is I don't ever arrive
in the news groups expecting to be heard, I hope someone is listening, but
if I have something I feel is important (Like a reproducible bug, or a
client who was very unhappy about something beyond my control) I make sure
I get that information into the hands of the people who can do something
with it. I hope the higher ups do know the condition, but the condition
isn't just limited to Civil 3D, other products were/are in worse states in
my opinion and I would like to see something change that makes these things
a non-issue in the future. I don't know that I think it will happen,
specially considering the way publicly held companies must operate to
appease the share holder, but I can hope.

Nick


"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5223648@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm sorry you feel that way, Nick. If this forum is only for the resolution
of minor technical problems as you and James suggest then why call it a
discussion group? Well, here's another sound for you - resentment. I resent
the fact that anyone would let me (and others) languish over known issues
they know we can't fix and I resent the implication that the users are
somehow at fault for not being more accepting of a few "minor" defects. I'm
as patient and understanding as the next guy, Nick, but I think the promise
is being stretched a bit thin here. The Civil 3D leadership is aware of the
condition of our software - including the higher-ups you mentioned. I think
my original targets were fairly accurate.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
wrote in message news:5222998@discussion.autodesk.com...
I still agree with James. The guys writing the code are definatly reading
what we have to say, but they really only need one thing that is fairly
short supply for them and that is time. I would hazard to guess the only
people that can expand the timeline or hit the hold button on a product
release are those sitting in a nice corner office somewhere in San Rafael.
Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands of
NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about? I don't.
Depending on the size of your(meaning any of you reading this) company if
you happen to be what autodesk considers a "Major Account" call up your
reseller, ask for a meeting with the local adesk rep Major accounts have
impact(I am not saying the little guys dont, they are just smaller). They
are going to be able to push things to the correct people much more
effectively. My two cents.
Nick

"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5222919@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 8 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

I think you've got some valid points, Mike, and we both know that we're
arguing in circles.

Tell you what, you have all your clients that you've already charged for
subscription and software call me. I'll be sure they get somewhere for their
money.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 9 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

Thanks for the offer James but no thanks. My clients are doing just fine.
Besides, the last thing they need is for someone to take their money and
run. Maybe you could give pointers on abandoning the program on your
projects like you did at J&B. Then maybe they can do customer testimonials
too.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5223697@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think you've got some valid points, Mike, and we both know that we're
arguing in circles.

Tell you what, you have all your clients that you've already charged for
subscription and software call me. I'll be sure they get somewhere for their
money.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 10 of 24
remmnate
in reply to: AussieHans

I agree that the biggest breakdown is between adesk and the resellers. They are the ones that actually sell us the product. Getting support from the ones around me is like buying a new car and having no gas in it. Then the salesman walks up to you with a can full for $500 to get the car off of the lot. So you either pay the $500 or you go for a walk down the street and spend less money on the gas, but it is more work and takes more time. A simple one day training from the reseller or something similar should be included with the purchase not an optional add on.

One other thing I need to comment on is that everyone wants us to show them something reproducible that causes errors. I think that's where everyone is missing the point. If we knew what was causing the problem and making us crash I don't think we would do that anymore. Its the stuff that can not be reproduced that gets everyone frustrated. The really random errors that can't be explained.
Message 11 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

remmnate wrote:
> I agree that the biggest breakdown is between adesk and the
> resellers. They are the ones that actually sell us the product.
> Getting support from the ones around me is like buying a new car and
> having no gas in it. Then the salesman walks up to you with a can
> full for $500 to get the car off of the lot. So you either pay the
> $500 or you go for a walk down the street and spend less money on the
> gas, but it is more work and takes more time. A simple one day
> training from the reseller or something similar should be included
> with the purchase not an optional add on.

A) you think you can learn C3D in one day?

B) you think there is enough of a profit margin on the software to
support 1 day of training for you at the cost of the reseller? I can
assure you that there's not.

C) sure, you can get a day thrown in for free, but expect your software
to cost more. I hate to burst your bubble, but most of us don't work
for free - I've got to pay the bills just like you.

D) If you're getting bad service from your reseller, then it's obvious
that you need a new reseller.

--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP1A
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor
Message 12 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

>>Re: Returning to 2006 revisited
remmnate wrote:
> I agree that the biggest breakdown is between adesk and the
> resellers. They are the ones that actually sell us the product.
> Getting support from the ones around me is like buying a new car and
> having no gas in it. Then the salesman walks up to you with a can
> full for $500 to get the car off of the lot. So you either pay the
> $500 or you go for a walk down the street and spend less money on the
> gas, but it is more work and takes more time. A simple one day
> training from the reseller or something similar should be included
> with the purchase not an optional add on.

A) you think you can learn C3D in one day?

B) you think there is enough of a profit margin on the software to
support 1 day of training for you at the cost of the reseller? I can
assure you that there's not.

C) sure, you can get a day thrown in for free, but expect your software
to cost more. I hate to burst your bubble, but most of us don't work
for free - I've got to pay the bills just like you.

D) If you're getting bad service from your reseller, then it's obvious
that you need a new reseller.

--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP1A
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor

Hi Jason, Welcome to being in the Middle.
A) I'm not even sure if I can transition Half my staff to this product. And it's not my staff, I'm a peon.

B.) Not for the reseller.

C.) Yup, that's the truth. My resellers good guys move on to something with a future of doing something beside listening to me.

D.) Whatever happened to the territorial rule? Wasn't it your reseller had to be within 250 miles of you?
Where do I send my people to train?

Personally I think that Autodesk views support as an overhead center that they are trying to phase out.
Make the client pay for his own support, don't expect it to come with the product.

Bentley after all gutted the value added reseller business and they are doing fine.

I think you guys need more from Adesk.
Message 13 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

jpostlewait wrote:
> Hi Jason, Welcome to being in the Middle.
> A) I'm not even sure if I can transition Half my staff to this
> product. And it's not my staff, I'm a peon.

It's not so bad in the middle, as long as I can educate people who are
mistaken when they think they know everything they speak of.

> B.) Not for the reseller.

Indeed.

> C.) Yup, that's the truth. My resellers good guys move on to
something > with a future of doing something beside listening to me.

This is a cut-throat business, for the most part.

> D.) Whatever happened to the territorial rule? Wasn't it your
reseller > had to be within 250 miles of you?
> Where do I send my people to train?

There is a territorial rule for software sales - 250 miles (with certain
exceptions). For services, no rules apply. You can call in any
trainer that you want, and go to any class that you think is best for
you. Why do you think I'm in Chicago doing a custom Civil 3D class
this week when I'm based in Alabama?

> Personally I think that Autodesk views support as an overhead center
> that they are trying to phase out.
> Make the client pay for his own support, don't expect it to come with
> the product.

Our clients never pay for support. Never. As for Autodesk, I won't
comment.

> Bentley after all gutted the value added reseller business and they
> are doing fine.

Are they really?

> I think you guys need more from Adesk.

I won't argue.

--
Jason Hickey

Civil 3D 2007, SP1A
Dell Precision M70
2 GIG RAM, 256 MB nVidia Quadro FX Go1400
Intel Centrino 2 gHz Processor
Message 14 of 24
kevincurrey
in reply to: AussieHans

>Our clients never pay for support. Never.

I'm jealous for your customers. I have two resellers available here. One offers no support at all, the other offers at $400 year. Not that I think it's a bad price, but I would sure like know what I'm getting for it.
Message 15 of 24
remmnate
in reply to: AussieHans

A) you think you can learn C3D in one day?

Agreed, but something is better than nothing....I think.

B) you think there is enough of a profit margin on the software to
support 1 day of training for you at the cost of the reseller? I can
assure you that there's not.

Valid point.

C) sure, you can get a day thrown in for free, but expect your software
to cost more. I hate to burst your bubble, but most of us don't work
for free - I've got to pay the bills just like you.

Also valid.

D) If you're getting bad service from your reseller, then it's obvious
that you need a new reseller.

The only service I receive from my reseller is a call once every 6 months asking If I would like any more seats, because the price will be going up soon so I better get some now...

I wasn't meaning to attack the reseller's at all Jason. I think I missed the point I was trying to make and meant no hostilities toward the reseller's themselves.
Message 16 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

We focus heavily on customer service. Our support is free (for our clients)
plus we offer 3 days of free training with full seat purchases - without
inflating prices. We offer a limited amount of free onsite support. When
support wanders into design we bill out as senior designers so the client
can easily recover the cost on their project.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
wrote in message news:5225074@discussion.autodesk.com...
A) you think you can learn C3D in one day?

Agreed, but something is better than nothing....I think.

B) you think there is enough of a profit margin on the software to
support 1 day of training for you at the cost of the reseller? I can
assure you that there's not.

Valid point.

C) sure, you can get a day thrown in for free, but expect your software
to cost more. I hate to burst your bubble, but most of us don't work
for free - I've got to pay the bills just like you.

Also valid.

D) If you're getting bad service from your reseller, then it's obvious
that you need a new reseller.

The only service I receive from my reseller is a call once every 6 months
asking If I would like any more seats, because the price will be going up
soon so I better get some now...

I wasn't meaning to attack the reseller's at all Jason. I think I missed
the point I was trying to make and meant no hostilities toward the
reseller's themselves.
Message 17 of 24
AussieHans
in reply to: AussieHans

Hello James

Took a bit of a stroll around www.civil3d.com, and happened to click the Reader's Digest link in the article where you explain where the site name came from. Had to chuckle at what came up...see attachment...no offence intended...
Message 18 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

snip>Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands
of NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about?
No Nick - they employ a staffer to handle that for them - at first.

If something in a thread has "potential" then they involve themselves - and
possibly a superior, at some point known only to the Deskers.

During the early stages of trolling, this presumed staffer's job is to
reconnoiter the DG's that deal with C3D, and once they have assimilated the
data - report their findings. In as succinct or elaborate manner as they
have been given instructions, based upon the thread's "core" content I'm
thinking.

I would guess that they then have the sense to winnow the thread for
themselves, as a measure of gaining their own insight into the staffer's
abilities. And of course to see for themselves our comments.

My "guess" may bear some sort of semblance to the Real World - how much is
likely everyone's/anyone's opinion.

HTH

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse
than training your staff,
and having them leave is -
not training your staff,
and having them stay."
Courtesy Graphics Solution Providers
----------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop 🙂 !!

LDT/CD-2K4
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+ 2.01GHz
XP-Pro 32bit SP2
2GB RAM
Dual WD800JD Hard Drives - 149GB Nvidia Stripe
Nvidia Quadro FX 1300 128MB
Dual ViewSonic 19-inch VA902b monitors

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5222998@discussion.autodesk.com...
I still agree with James. The guys writing the code are definatly reading
what we have to say, but they really only need one thing that is fairly
short supply for them and that is time. I would hazard to guess the only
people that can expand the timeline or hit the hold button on a product
release are those sitting in a nice corner office somewhere in San Rafael.
Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands of
NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about? I don't.
Depending on the size of your(meaning any of you reading this) company if
you happen to be what autodesk considers a "Major Account" call up your
reseller, ask for a meeting with the local adesk rep Major accounts have
impact(I am not saying the little guys dont, they are just smaller). They
are going to be able to push things to the correct people much more
effectively. My two cents.
Nick

"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5222919@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 19 of 24
Anonymous
in reply to: AussieHans

Eric Wright may now put a "price on my head" for mentioning the Site that
leads to his level of involvement in all sorts of matters dealing with the
DG's;
http://tinyurl.com/892k9

Feedback.

He is the 1st contact for accessing the "channel", and I've seen great
success from the "channel" - at times.

Some issues I've sent in have a broad stroke about them, so sometimes the
response of the Deskers can take a while.

Try two or three weeks.

At this point of my life, I am still able to "recall" what sent me to
Feedback, though as I increase in years, I'm starting to realize that I
should start keeping track. So that I can access the necessary notes to
enable the "recall". 😉

Sometimes it's the next day, but not often - especially if there's something
already occupying their time. 2K7 comes readily to mind, as a time-occupant.

Especially if there just happens to be access to a Saturday, Sunday or
Holiday. 😉


The C3Der's "in charge" peruse this DG often - and thankfully leave their
"tracks".

Dave (6 posts since 26MAR06) & Dan's (47 posts since 26MAR06) presence is
noticed sporadically nowadays - but things weren't always this way. In the
Early Days we would see their presence here - often.

Even Chakri is becoming scarce (6 posts since 26MAR06), but he would often
be "seen" during the Early Days.

Himanshu is even getting to be quite less of a "fixture" than he was around
six months ago (80 posts since 26MAR06). Though I would label that a
"slight" drop - very slight.

Now I have OE to thank for enabling my count during the research. 😉

I hope my exposure doesn't lessen their participation. Though I'm aware of
the changes my record "might" produce, I felt it's presence would lend
credence to the Desker's participation for the past quarter..

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse
than training your staff,
and having them leave is -
not training your staff,
and having them stay."
Courtesy Graphics Solution Providers
----------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop 🙂 !!

LDT/CD-2K4
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+ 2.01GHz
XP-Pro 32bit SP2
2GB RAM
Dual WD800JD Hard Drives - 149GB Nvidia Stripe
Nvidia Quadro FX 1300 128MB
Dual ViewSonic 19-inch VA902b monitors

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5223678@discussion.autodesk.com...
Mike, I see the forums as a place where the users can get help, typically
from other users. To be perfectly honest I think we are very lucky in here
with how much involvement we get from the Dev team on a day to day basis,
alot of other groups dont get nearly the same level of interaction. We can
discuss the merits or non merits of the annual release cycle till we are all
blue in the fingers, I just don't think it accomplishes much in this
setting. Like I suggested early if you are unhappy take it through a
channel where you can actually expect a response. The discussion groups are
an open forum and people can choose to participate or not, seems to me the
people that hold the keys to changing the root of the problems are choosing
not to participate. I didn't say I thought the product was in great shape
defect wise, it still needs more work, from where I sit though Dev is
getting things to us as fast as they possibly can with the resources they
have available. I guess my sole point in all of this is I don't ever arrive
in the news groups expecting to be heard, I hope someone is listening, but
if I have something I feel is important (Like a reproducible bug, or a
client who was very unhappy about something beyond my control) I make sure
I get that information into the hands of the people who can do something
with it. I hope the higher ups do know the condition, but the condition
isn't just limited to Civil 3D, other products were/are in worse states in
my opinion and I would like to see something change that makes these things
a non-issue in the future. I don't know that I think it will happen,
specially considering the way publicly held companies must operate to
appease the share holder, but I can hope.

Nick


"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5223648@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm sorry you feel that way, Nick. If this forum is only for the resolution
of minor technical problems as you and James suggest then why call it a
discussion group? Well, here's another sound for you - resentment. I resent
the fact that anyone would let me (and others) languish over known issues
they know we can't fix and I resent the implication that the users are
somehow at fault for not being more accepting of a few "minor" defects. I'm
as patient and understanding as the next guy, Nick, but I think the promise
is being stretched a bit thin here. The Civil 3D leadership is aware of the
condition of our software - including the higher-ups you mentioned. I think
my original targets were fairly accurate.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
wrote in message news:5222998@discussion.autodesk.com...
I still agree with James. The guys writing the code are definatly reading
what we have to say, but they really only need one thing that is fairly
short supply for them and that is time. I would hazard to guess the only
people that can expand the timeline or hit the hold button on a product
release are those sitting in a nice corner office somewhere in San Rafael.
Do you really think vp's at autodesk are trolling through the thousands of
NG posts looking to see what customers are disgruntled about? I don't.
Depending on the size of your(meaning any of you reading this) company if
you happen to be what autodesk considers a "Major Account" call up your
reseller, ask for a meeting with the local adesk rep Major accounts have
impact(I am not saying the little guys dont, they are just smaller). They
are going to be able to push things to the correct people much more
effectively. My two cents.
Nick

"Mike Norton" wrote in message
news:5222919@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree, James. This discussion group
is a great source of support but it also happens to be hosted and monitored
by Autodesk. Where better to complain? These are not the bitch-and-run
tactics that your post would imply. Listen. These are voices clamoring for
product stability. This is the sound of sincere desire for functionality at
least as efficient as whatever package we are expected to abandon in favor
of Civil 3D. This is the noise of frustration with a company without the
courage to delay a release, without the leadership to develop a product, and
without the fortitude to publish known issues. Exactly how many companies
out there do you think have the option to "cut bait" as an option? I use
this group for support but I also use it in hopes of initiating positive
change. Bitch? This is the sound of reasonable expectation, James.

--
Mike Norton
Total CAD Systems, Inc. - Houston, Texas
"James Wedding" wrote in message
news:5222729@discussion.autodesk.com...
And I'm still saying you're barking up the wrong tree. I was a bit blunt
about it, but my point still stands. This group is here to help with
generally minor issues, not solve big ticket items.

Your support agents are your official means of support. They can chase down
the issue with people that can write patches, and perhaps get the right
person on the phone. Ed Canvasser was (is?) quite the vocal critic of the
software, and rightly so. He also was helpful, and gave specific
issues that
could reproduced and debugged. I know for a fact that some of his issues are
being worked on right now.

This is what's been lacking in many of the other posts in this group. For
instance, I read back, and found that you were having some issues with
SCALELISTEDIT. I pulled up my (SP1!) C3D and modified my scale list. Seemed
to work OK, see attached. You haven't provided any level of detail, so how
can anyone know what's going on?

You are DEAD ON RIGH
T that there are bugs in the software. I really don't
think that 'deskers that come in here have tried to deny this. I think they
do have a problem when users complain that the software sucks without
telling them why. That's what is frustrating and that's why you occasionally
get the snarky reply. (Guilty, I admit it, it was snarky.) You don't
appreciate when a client or reviewer tells you it's a crappy design then
walks away, why would they?

I do think it's OK to put s
oftware on the market with bugs. It's a fact of
life that programmers are human, as are the thousands of people that beta
test the software. With something as complex as C3D, it's very possible for
something to get through.

I hope that clarified my post, and if that helps your cause then great. I'd
still like to know more about what you're running into, if only to try and
know more about what our clients might face. Thanks.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Ef
ficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com
Message 20 of 24
T_Bernhard
in reply to: AussieHans

And to add to the irony, down on the left-hand side they invite submissions of jokes... wouldn't that be an anticlimax? 😉

Trevor

Can't find what you're looking for? Ask the community or share your knowledge.

Post to forums  

Rail Community


Autodesk Design & Make Report