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PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

61 REPLIES 61
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Message 1 of 62
jfalkowski
9468 Views, 61 Replies

PLEASE?! PROFILE VIEW - ROTATION

It still amazes me after all these years that one cannot simply rotate a profile view.  It has to be literally, the only Civil 3D object that cannot be rotated.  It can't possibly be that difficult to give us the option between UCS and View like a lot of other labels and objects.

 

It is so frustrating to have your design in one axis and your profiles stuck in World UCS.  I know you can create two model space views and twist the profile but if I wanted to work in a tiny little viewport I would switch back to my old17" monitor.  Btw, working through the viewport in paper space in not a viable option either, although I know Autodesk must love this.  I guess I could also export data out and XREF it back in to rotate it but that's a PITA too!

 

 

Jon

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

61 REPLIES 61
Message 2 of 62
owenmull
in reply to: jfalkowski

Why would you even need to rotate it in the first place? Seems rather extraneous and unnecessary to me.

 

XREF and rotate would be a vialbe option.

-Owen
Windows 7 x 64 bit

Civil 3D 2017
______________________________________________________________
Usually, I find that the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.
Message 3 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: owenmull

How could you possibly look at the attachment and ask "why is that necessary?"  LOL

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 4 of 62
owenmull
in reply to: jfalkowski

I suppose a better question I could be asking you is this:

 

Why are you designing on different axis' in the first place? 

 

This appears to be a subdivision or streetscape of some sort. I assume you are 'designing' about the axis through which your main street is based, hence why your profile views remain World UCS and don't follow suit.

 

The only fix I can think of is to create profiles in a seperate dwg and data shortcut them and XREF'ing the dwg into your design dwg.

 

It appears that you are trying to work against what the program was designed to do.

 

Hope you get a fix soon.

 

 

-Owen
Windows 7 x 64 bit

Civil 3D 2017
______________________________________________________________
Usually, I find that the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.
Message 5 of 62
Citadel2012
in reply to: jfalkowski

Is it really easier to work with the road and profile in the same view anyway? I understand it gets annoying when the views get smaller, but I'd say the split view is the only "clean" option.

______________________________________________________________
To Err is Human; To Really Foul Things Up Requires a Computer.
Message 6 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: Citadel2012

It is absolutely easier to work on two things in the same plane, in the same view... I'm not sure how working in two small viewports is preferable; I know it has it's benefits or uses but I don't find myself using it very often.

 

My point is, I can rotate Structure and Pipe schedules or even modfiy styles for a host of other 3D objects to be "View" oriented, why not profile views?  I know all the work arounds, I'm just saying it would be much easier to not have to work around it...

 

Also, I am simply rotating using model space twist.  I know this can be heavily debated and has been in the past; we prefer twist over UCS rotation.  95% of our projects get "Twisted" so that the horizontal alignment of the frontage road or improvement is horizontal on the plotted sheet, that's just common sense to work in the same "view" that you will plot in.  Are you saying you work on designs in model space with no twist applied, always True North, WCS...and then plot your views in the best layout possible?  I'm talking about smaller projects obviously, where one orientation makes sense for the whole project.  Obviously, miles and miles of a road project would be a different scenario.

 

How is wanting to rotate something, "working against the software"?  Do you not have label styles that are set to View Orientation?  All of your styles are set to WCS Orientation Reference?

 

I'm not trying to be hard on you, just trying to understand how others accomplish tasks as effeciently as possible without having to constantly split viewports, rotate multiple views, XREF, Data Shortcut, ect.  I would love this option to be incorporated into future releases.  Then if people like you don't prefer to use it, then you can set your View Orientation to WCS and I'll set mine to View.  Simple.

 

Jon

 

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 7 of 62
owenmull
in reply to: jfalkowski

My responses to your comments are in red.

@jfalkowski wrote:

It is absolutely easier to work on two things in the same plane, in the same view... I'm not sure how working in two small viewports is preferable; I know it has it's benefits or uses but I don't find myself using it very often.

 

See below for why this is absolutely not the case. It is harder to do it this way, as you are working against C3D. When you create your 'Sheets' (layout tabs, viewports, etc etc) are you doing this process manually?

 

My point is, I can rotate Structure and Pipe schedules or even modfiy styles for a host of other 3D objects to be "View" oriented, why not profile views?  I know all the work arounds, I'm just saying it would be much easier to not have to work around it...

 

Simply, because Structures, Pipes, etc. are intelligent data, they are C3D objects. Profile Views are not the same, they are simply mediums for displaying the C3D data, nothing more.

 

Also, I am simply rotating using model space twist.  I know this can be heavily debated and has been in the past; we prefer twist over UCS rotation.  95% of our projects get "Twisted" so that the horizontal alignment of the frontage road or improvement is horizontal on the plotted sheet, that's just common sense to work in the same "view" that you will plot in.  Are you saying you work on designs in model space with no twist applied, always True North, WCS...and then plot your views in the best layout possible?  I'm talking about smaller projects obviously, where one orientation makes sense for the whole project.  Obviously, miles and miles of a road project would be a different scenario.

 

A matter or personal (or company) preference. There are fanboys for both, but it makes little difference, at least to C3D. I always work with no rotation at all. Then, if I have a 'custom' viewport that I need oriented differently for whatever reason, within the VP I use the 'Twist' command you reference. I dont like rotating my UCS if at all possible, but others prefer it. There's not really a "wrong" way to do this.

 

How is wanting to rotate something, "working against the software"?  Do you not have label styles that are set to View Orientation?  All of your styles are set to WCS Orientation Reference?

 

It is not designed to accomodate the need to rotate the Profile View, since you can control how it is displayed in your sheets via the viewport method.

 

You are wanting to rotate something that there, really, is no need to rotate. 'Labels' and 'Profile Views' are completely and entirely different C3D objects. Obviously, I would want an Alignment label to be set to my view rotation. For a Profile View, which in and of itself is not intellignet data, but a display tool to be viewed in a viewport set to however you want it, rotation is simply unnecessary.

 

While it certainly can be done in the approach you are taking, ie to design along your 'Design Axis' as opposed to true north, you are forcing C3D to work against what it is natively set up to do. 

 

It is a lot simpler to just leave your orientation alone, and use C3D to cut your sheets, set your viewport orientations accordingly, so that it plots along your 'Design Axis' but all your C3D intelligent data remains normally oriented. To rotate everything, and to design that way just introduces an unnecessary issues, like what you are experiencing.

 

Labels absolutely need to be view oriented, because they are not the only thing in a viewport typically. In most cases, the Profile View is the only thing (or in other cases, the most important thing) displaying in a viewport, so there is no need to have to orient it in any other way.

 

I'm not trying to be hard on you, just trying to understand how others accomplish tasks as effeciently as possible without having to constantly split viewports, rotate multiple views, XREF, Data Shortcut, ect.  I would love this option to be incorporated into future releases.  Then if people like you don't prefer to use it, then you can set your View Orientation to WCS and I'll set mine to View.  Simple.

 

Again, simply unnecessary. You are 'going against the grain,' so to speak, with the program. IMHO it sounds to me like you have created a mess by rotating your drawing, then trying to force C3D to do something in a fashion that it's not set up to do. Now, you're forced to workaround the program.

 

By all means, continue to ask! We're all here to help.

 

-owenmull

 

-Owen
Windows 7 x 64 bit

Civil 3D 2017
______________________________________________________________
Usually, I find that the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.
Message 8 of 62
Bill_Myron
in reply to: jfalkowski

The labels and styles that you speak of to rotate by "View', are how the object is displayed, not how it is modeled. There needs to be an understanding of the seperation of these 2 things.

 

The thing that I find awesome about Civil 3D is that it forces you to model and design in the real world. Civil 3D is model based. Everything has to have a reference to some place in the real world. What ever you set your UCS to is what governs Civil Objects. If you really want to design the way you want, rotate your UCS to the same axis as your alignment BEFORE you create your profile view. This is a terrible work around and I advise against it.





Message 9 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: Bill_Myron

I'm confused by your arguement.  I agree that Pipes, Structures, etc are intelligent C3D objects that need to reference "real world" location (State Plane) in order to be useful.  I also agree that Profile Views are simply mediums to display information and I understand exactly what they are...which further clarifies my point.  Pipe Schedules are also mediums to display information from intelligent C3D objects.  It does not matter where you place them or how you rotate them, they only reference C3D object data and display it for you how ever you see fit.  Profile Views should then be able to function similarly, wouldn't you agree?  They simply display data sampled from surface along an alignment or pipe network data, etc.  Those C3D objects are still in the "Real World" as Bill mentions...it should not matter where you place the view as long as the data it references does not move. 

 

The only complication I see would be creating proposed profiles on the view...which my guess would be, is the only reason we do not have the functionality I'm asking for.  Even then, the proposed profile should realize it's location based on the profile view insertion point. 

 

Please elaborate again how rotating views is working against the software.  Engineer's have been rotating views for the past 15+ years... It's been the norm as far as I'm concerned...exceptions have been made in my area, certain Counties require plans to be plotted on a St Plane Grid.  No one works in WCS with their heads cocked sideways while they draft/engineer.  Sorry, that's just silly.

 


Jon

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 10 of 62
jmayo-EE
in reply to: jfalkowski

Jon,

 

I personally Ownes post. It really doesn't matter what we think C3D should do sometimes. We must work with what we have and unfortunately that means changing many of our LDD/AutoCAD workflows if we really want to harness C3D. I don't mean to sound jerky but many of us have been down the same road trying to get C3D to work like other programs. This has always slowed me down.

 

What you may find helpful is using view ports and saved views in MS for the design/layout work. See the attached. You can configure these so your plan view is it's rotated view in one VP and the profiles or sections can be in a World coord rotation below or to the side. Each view can be save so the plan, profile or sections will pop into view very fast. This will also keep you set for using the P&P tools as already mentioned.

 

As Owen said C3D is just not made to do what you want. Now that doesn't mean this won't turn out to be a new feature soon but if it isn't in the box now then no one has been screaming for it loud or long enough.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 11 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: jmayo-EE

I hear ya John....my post wasnt really to learn a new way of doing things.  I know the software's limitations and I do exactly what you posted screen shots of.  The point of my post was simply to complain.  There are many features that others have requested in the past and they have been incorporated simply by enough users documenting their issues on here to be quite honest.  If enough people complain...they finally get around to adding a "new feature"

 

I appreciate the responses but I already know how to work around it and I have been since 2007.  I am surprised more people don't ask for more functionality more often.  The problem becomes that people need to move on with designs to meet project deadlines and they can't dwell on the annoyances of the software...so, they find a workaround and that becomes the "correct" way of doing it from then on out.  One day maybe I'll be able to twist profile views and have annotative structure/pipe labels...

 

Thanks

 

Jon

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 12 of 62
jmayo-EE
in reply to: jfalkowski

No problem Jon.

 

"One day maybe I'll be able to twist profile views and have annotative structure/pipe labels..."

 

You're right though. Ya' need to get more folks makin' noise for this one.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 13 of 62
owenmull
in reply to: jfalkowski

Let's try this again here. You seem to be missing what I'm trying to get across.

 


@jfalkowski wrote:

I'm confused by your arguement.  I agree that Pipes, Structures, etc are intelligent C3D objects that need to reference "real world" location (State Plane) in order to be useful.  I also agree that Profile Views are simply mediums to display information and I understand exactly what they are...which further clarifies my point.  Pipe Schedules are also mediums to display information from intelligent C3D objects.  It does not matter where you place them or how you rotate them, they only reference C3D object data and display it for you how ever you see fit.  Profile Views should then be able to function similarly, wouldn't you agree? 

 

When I say 'Intelligent Data,' I refer to things such as Alignments, Profiles, Corridors, etc. 'Objects' are more like Profile Views, etc. No, I would not agree. There is absolutely no need for them to be able to rotate if you use C3D the way it was intended. For C3D to do this, it would have to have the Profile View and all associated objects and data reference the new UCS rotation, which is just in a word, unnecessary. The way C3D functions, there is no need for such functionality.

 

Why? Well, let's think about the end product. It is plotted horizontally on the paper, yes? So why would you provide so much functionality to an object that in the end it is pretty much irrelevant? In other words, you end up plotting the view with no rotation applied to it, so why start with rotation applied to it? Again, because it is unnecessary. 

 

Let's say you have a wild hair and want to plot it at some wacky angle. You could rotate it's viewport to said wacky angle, while leaving your intelligent data alone. Simple.

 

They simply display data sampled from surface along an alignment or pipe network data, etc.  Those C3D objects are still in the "Real World" as Bill mentions...it should not matter where you place the view as long as the data it references does not move. 

 

For C3D to track this and dynamically change it, you would have to change your UCS rotation. As a previous poster had mentioned, this is not a good solution, more of a 'hotfix.' This can cause more problems than it solves if you're not careful.

 

The only complication I see would be creating proposed profiles on the view...which my guess would be, is the only reason we do not have the functionality I'm asking for.  Even then, the proposed profile should realize it's location based on the profile view insertion point. 

 

And the established UCS rotation.

 

Please elaborate again how rotating views is working against the software.  Engineer's have been rotating views for the past 15+ years... It's been the norm as far as I'm concerned...exceptions have been made in my area, certain Counties require plans to be plotted on a St Plane Grid.  

 

It seems to me that you need to change how you think of this. So let's say I have a road running North-South. In your dwg, you would rotate your Model Space 90°, and then begin your design? You certainly can go this route, but it's not how C3D was set up to work.

 

So, I take it you want everything going left to right across your screen, anywhere and everywhere. This is how it should be plotted, we all can agree on that. Nobody wants to see 50 Plan and Profile Sheets with the Alignment going Top Paper to Bottom Paper (no rotation), rather than 10 Plan and Profile Sheets with Alignment in viewport going across the page (rotation). But I think you are off when thinking about how you get there, and how C3D gets there.

 

How is this working against the software, you ask? Let's say you have a road going in a N-S direction. Rather than work against C3D, do all your design in Model Space, leave the rotation alone. All your labels will be set to orient themselves with the view, so that no matter what rotation is applied to a viewport, they will always read conventionally. So, you can do your design, label all your features, etc etc etc. When it comes time to create your sheets, you can either create each sheet, each viewport manually, and then within said viewport, rotate the view so that it is laid out conventionally, or you can automate this process (if you have the associated templates set up already, or modify C3D's OOTB plan production templates) and create View Frames, which orient themselves along the alignment, and cut sheets that way. Using that method, C3D will automatically create the entire layout and all, completely automatically (based upon a template, of course). The end product this way is the exact same as what you are trying to accomplish, and you are using C3D to do the work, not stripping its' functionality, and then working around it.

 

I hope this helps you to gain an understanding of just what C3D is doing, and how it is set up to function.

No one works in WCS with their heads cocked sideways while they draft/engineer. 

 

I would agree, but understanding how C3D gets Model Space data to Paper Space avoids these issues.

 

Sorry, that's just silly.

 

Using a wrench to pound nails is also silly. Why not use a hammer?


Jon



-owenmull

-Owen
Windows 7 x 64 bit

Civil 3D 2017
______________________________________________________________
Usually, I find that the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.
Message 14 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: owenmull

Sorry, I completely disagree.  We always design in model space and we almost always orient the view based on the working design plane and what the drawings will be plotted at.  This is usually set in the beginning and does not change throughout the project.  We label all of our structures and pipes in model (numbers, grate el, inverts, sta., etc.).  If you labeled them all with model in WCS then how would you know what the final product would look like in the viewport after you rotate it?  Especially if you have the sheets generated automatically along the alignment.  Labels would be on top of each other because it holds the label insertion point and rotates referenced to that.  Unless all of your labels are perfect circles with a center insertion point...I'm not sure anyone could guess well enough.

 

So do you label everything in model (no twist)...then create your viewport in paper space...then move all your labels around via working through the viewport so that labels are not all on top of each other?  How do you accomplish this if you generate your sheets automatically without looking at them first? 

 

See the attachments.  Model with twist is the utility plan with all labels rotated to the view they will be plotted to and labels are placed so that everything is completely legible and do not overlap each other.  Model w/ no twist shows what happens when you rotate back to WCS.  So how do you label in WCS but have your labels where you need them once your viewport gets twisted?  Do you revise through the viewport or do you just guess where to place them and anticpate their location after rotation?  Seems counterproductive and highly inefficient to me. 

 

Jon

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 15 of 62
Cadguru42
in reply to: jfalkowski


@jfalkowski wrote:

Sorry, I completely disagree.  We always design in model space and we almost always orient the view based on the working design plane and what the drawings will be plotted at.  This is usually set in the beginning and does not change throughout the project.  We label all of our structures and pipes in model (numbers, grate el, inverts, sta., etc.).  If you labeled them all with model in WCS then how would you know what the final product would look like in the viewport after you rotate it?  Especially if you have the sheets generated automatically along the alignment.  Labels would be on top of each other because it holds the label insertion point and rotates referenced to that.  Unless all of your labels are perfect circles with a center insertion point...I'm not sure anyone could guess well enough.

 

So do you label everything in model (no twist)...then create your viewport in paper space...then move all your labels around via working through the viewport so that labels are not all on top of each other?  How do you accomplish this if you generate your sheets automatically without looking at them first? 

 

See the attachments.  Model with twist is the utility plan with all labels rotated to the view they will be plotted to and labels are placed so that everything is completely legible and do not overlap each other.  Model w/ no twist shows what happens when you rotate back to WCS.  So how do you label in WCS but have your labels where you need them once your viewport gets twisted?  Do you revise through the viewport or do you just guess where to place them and anticpate their location after rotation?  Seems counterproductive and highly inefficient to me. 

 

Jon


When you create the sheets using the plan production tools or if you have your own created layout, you just have to goto each layout's viewport and move the labels around. I've been doing this for years with C3D as that's the way it's intended to work. Is it annoying to have to have labels moved from inside a viewport instead of model space? Yes, but at least I'm not fighting the way the program was designed. 

 

Here's what my paper space looks like for a project with a rotated viewport in a layout.

label_rotation_viewport1.png

 

Now here's the same drawing in the model space.

label_rotation_viewport2.png

 

I add my labels while inside the viewport of the layout. It doesn't matter how it looks in model space as the model space is just for design work, not labeling or plotting.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 16 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: Cadguru42

WOW, that looks terrible....haha.  How do you work like that?? IMO, Model space should be clean and organized without a bunch of jumbled labels on top of each other that you can't even read. 

 

So what do you do when your consultants or agencies request CAD files?  Or files need to be sent to contractors for stakeout? Do you send them that cluttered mess of a drawing with **** everywhere and say "here, you figure it out, that's the way Autodesk intended it to be"  That would not fly my my clients...haha.

 

To each thier own.  You guys keep saying the way the software was intended or designed to be.  There have been so many additions since the birth of this software...just because the user can't do something now does not mean it was designed that way...

 

SMH.

 

Jon

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 17 of 62
jfalkowski
in reply to: jfalkowski

I should also add, I work in model space at all times except for notes and details on the sheet...THE WAY THE SOFTWARE WAS DESIGNED Smiley Wink

IDSP '15 SP3 / '16 SP2
Dell Mobile Precision 7720 - Core i7-7820HQ / Win 10 / 32GB Ram / SSD / Quadro M1200

Message 18 of 62
Cadguru42
in reply to: jfalkowski


@jfalkowski wrote:

WOW, that looks terrible....haha.  How do you work like that?? IMO, Model space should be clean and organized without a bunch of jumbled labels on top of each other that you can't even read. 

 

So what do you do when your consultants or agencies request CAD files?  Or files need to be sent to contractors for stakeout? Do you send them that cluttered mess of a drawing with **** everywhere and say "here, you figure it out, that's the way Autodesk intended it to be"  That would not fly my my clients...haha.

 

To each thier own.  You guys keep saying the way the software was intended or designed to be.  There have been so many additions since the birth of this software...just because the user can't do something now does not mean it was designed that way...

 

SMH.

 

Jon


Since I work for a local government, our drawings have to meet our standards which are based on TDOT standards. If you don't think they look good, so what? We send the dwg file as-is to any contractor or utility that requests the drawings as well as either DWFs or PDFs of what the final sheets are. The labels are on their own layers, so it's not hard to turn them off to work with the model space. You could easily XREF and DREF the main design drawing into a plan production drawing that has only the labels you require. I don't know why you're fighting against this so much when it's the way Autodesk has been telling people to work with software.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 19 of 62
volusiajim
in reply to: jfalkowski

One drawing with a road north and south and the other east and west.

Message 20 of 62
cadtech1986
in reply to: jfalkowski

Thought I would put in my 2 cents that I agree with the usefulness of being able to rotate profile views (as opposed to using split-window view). A majority of our work here involves pipe plans and profiles, and we typically use 2 ucs views: ucs "world" for true north reference, and ucs "plan view" that aligns with the pipe/street alignment. As we always design with our model view with the rotated ucs, most of us in my office would prefer not fiddling back and forth between two screen views. Additionally, it is more "user friendly" for other persons in the office to have our model space look more or less like the paper space view (in regards to annotation objects, profile views, etc). Most of the cad users here are "model-centric" with paperspace more as an afterthought used only for plotting purposes. It makes sense for profile views to be treated like any other annotation object (text, labels, tables, etc). Especially since profile views are used actively in the design process.

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