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Pipe Network Data Shortcut - Structure Styles

28 REPLIES 28
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Message 1 of 29
Anonymous
2636 Views, 28 Replies

Pipe Network Data Shortcut - Structure Styles

Hey All, I'm trying to find out what could be the cause of sturcture styles in a Pipe Network Design Drawing resetting to default styles when I Data Shortcut the design into my Sheet? (I.e. I've got gate valves, fh's, and plugs in my design file, but when I data shortcut them into my sheet they are all come in as null structures) Not Cool!

I'm using the same template that contains all the same parts/styles for both design and sheet.

Any advise of comments?
28 REPLIES 28
Message 2 of 29
pdmarkas
in reply to: Anonymous

I agree this is frustrating, but I believe it is by design. Most styles need to have the flexibility of being different from sheet to sheet and this is a carryover of that. You can "batch" change structures in Prospector or Panorama by sorting by description and editing all of the curb inlets at once, manholes at once, etc. As far as wish list items go, this issue is definitely close to the top for us.

Paul Markas
Civil 3D 2009
Message 3 of 29
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Thanks Markas, we're still running 08' till 09' hits it's first SP. I had this working in my templates before, but not so long ago it started acting up.

The workaround you posted definately helps, the description changed per the design, but the style doesn't. In 08' you can't batch change the style yet. But making sure the style matches the description works! Message was edited by: paul t
Message 4 of 29
pdmarkas
in reply to: Anonymous

I've been doing it this way since 07. You can select multiple structures using CTRL or SHIFT, just make sure you selecting a cell that is not style related (I use 'status' or 'name') Then RIGHT CLICK on the 'Style' heading and all selected rows will change!
Message 5 of 29
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Worked like a charm!! Thanks!
Message 6 of 29
O.Maille
in reply to: Anonymous

I've had the same problem, there is another solution;

If you used the same part list (can be dragged and dropped from drawing to drawing) and asign the styles to the parts the correct style will be drawn.

HOWEVER if your structures are the exact same (ie. all junction 750X750) then the style asigned to the first matching part in your parts list will be assigned.

This is probably due to the fact the parts are selected based on their PartID (eg. 94680C6E-30DB-4DBB-9F1B-48CC0DBF0368). This will vary based on part properties.

I've changed my valve sizes to be unique and this works, may work by changing material or custom properties, haven't tried yet.
Message 7 of 29
jeff.frye
in reply to: Anonymous

Changing the styles as described above works well. But only if you know every drawing that has your network referenced into it.

I want to have a master PIPE drawing that contains the styles and structures AS I WANT TO SEE THEM IN SHEETS.

If I update a structure style in my master file, I want ALL of those strutures to update to the new style. I have no way of tracking who has referenced my data in their files....

Message 8 of 29
castled071049
in reply to: jeff.frye

The most frustrating problem is that after the prodution sheets are set up and the pipe networks are referenced in, any changes to the base file will not update the styles in the dref'd sheets. In other words, if you change, say, a manhole to a cleanout, the newly syncrhonized dref'd part will still look like a manhole, even if the name or description says otherwise. At this point, you have to open each affected sheet separately and update the style individually.

 

Our workaround has been to create a master utility base file that has all the networks referenced into it and all the styles correctly showing in plan view. We then xref that single utility file into all of our production sheets. If a change is made to a part in a base file, all we have to do is open the master utility base file and update the style for the revised part. This will automatically update the styles in the production sheets as it is an xref, not a data referenced network.

 

The biggest problem to this approach is if you have a very large project, the master utility base file can get unwieldy. You have to plan that part out in advance, pretty much. Nonetheless, it beats the heck out of what we call "chasing styles", opening up every darned sheet to change a single part's look.

 

Anyone have any better ideas? We are wide open to suggestion.

 

 

Message 9 of 29
jmayo-EE
in reply to: Anonymous

This could be because an update or repair has reset the part catalog location.

 

Type SetNetworkCatalog at the command line and confirm the correct catalog location is set.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 10 of 29
jeff.frye
in reply to: jmayo-EE

Thank you John, This is not the case here. We are using 2010 C3D. Just cant get the styles to update on data references. Its not unique to pipe networks, its surfaces, alignments, etc...

 

Even if the destination file has the styles in it, autocad decides it should be the style that it was when it first came in to the destination file... rather than what I have updated it to.

Message 11 of 29
castled071049
in reply to: jmayo-EE

I just tested my "theory" on brand new files generated from the same template and same parts list. I did a simple two-pipe, 3-manhole network. I created a data shortcut and referenced it into a fresh file. I swapped the last manhole for a 42" headwall, saved it, synchronized it in the second drawing, and the changed part retained the manhole style while adjusting the description to say "41-In. Headwall". This is the nexus of our problem, that is, changes in base files do not seem to update the styles in dref'd drawing files.

Message 12 of 29
klugb
in reply to: jeff.frye

Jeff,

I saw your post in the other thread but thought this one was more appropriate.

As what has already been said, this is a problem. Don't get me wrong, I love C3D, but sometimes I wonder if some of the people responsible have EVER been completely through a production cycle start to finish?

I was told by ADSK I should just remove the pipe network and re-data shortcut them back in. This is because the mentality is that cutting sheets and production is the LAST thing you do. For most people it's not. You cut sheets then at 30%, 50%, 90%.... you changes structures, move structures, LABEL structures and move the labels to "fit" around background linework. Knowing the process can be years we usually end up with a lot of custom text edits to the labels also. Re-cutting sheets is NOT an option. Ok, enough on that.

 

We have just been diligent in keeping track of swapped parts that the drafters have to fix when working in the sheets. Comparing the description to the style also works but is painfully slow, especially in 2012. Toolspace has issues with pipe networks.

 

What I want is Visretain for pipe networks that keeps the network attached but you can overwrite the styles in the current drawing with the styles from the master. Heck, I would even be happy with a report that compares the styles. Hmm... I guess we could export to excel and compare them. Either way it's a pain.

 

 

Bruce Klug, P.E.
AutoCAD Expert Elite Alumni
AutoCAD Civil 3D Certified Professional
Civil 3D 2023.2.1

Win 10 Enterprise, 64-bit
Message 13 of 29
klugb
in reply to: castled071049

That's by design for all the data shortcut information.

It should be for all the other data but pipe networks need a way to sync back, IMO. We have styles for our design engineers that they use but are different then the ones we want for the drafters to use when creating plan production sheets.

 

Bruce Klug, P.E.
AutoCAD Expert Elite Alumni
AutoCAD Civil 3D Certified Professional
Civil 3D 2023.2.1

Win 10 Enterprise, 64-bit
Message 14 of 29
jeff.frye
in reply to: klugb

While working on this issue, we added a custom field to the XML file called "structure type". That new field is now added to the right-click structure properties dialog box in the part data area. Once we added that custom field, built the parts, and setup a parts list we can access that new field with the structure label. We now label <name>,<structure type> instead of <name>, <description>. So we now can count on the the label being correct -vs- the symbol, then for verification we can look at the individual structure properties.

 

BUT - we have adjusted our workflow to use a model file data referenced into an xref file that gets brought into sheets and exhibits. I can now say I have control over the symbols again...:)

 

We are now on a mission to add that custom field to the prospector tab on the structures panorama - programming outside my pay grade for sure 🙂

 

C3D 2010

 

Cadd Manager, Otak. Inc

Jeff

Message 15 of 29
klugb
in reply to: jeff.frye

Jeff,

We have also added several custom fields when we created our custom parts builder catalog.

 

What are you doing for the profile views? Are you data shortcutting the networks for profiles and xref'ing for plan?

Bruce Klug, P.E.
AutoCAD Expert Elite Alumni
AutoCAD Civil 3D Certified Professional
Civil 3D 2023.2.1

Win 10 Enterprise, 64-bit
Message 16 of 29
jeff.frye
in reply to: castled071049

Bruce,

Since we will be using an xref for the network, we will be forced to make a profile drawing and xref that into sheets :(...

 

Its really sad that this one "little" feature is actually interfering with a viable production workflow...

 

The only way we could still data reference in structures for the profile is to have a set of "noplot" styles for the structures in plan view, but we still have the "style" issue for the structures in profile view...

 

If a sychronize fixed the problem, we could just automate that process and force a sync at startup.

Message 17 of 29
annw2
in reply to: Anonymous

They still haven't gotten this fixed in 2012.  I can't believe this is part of the design of the software.  I can understand wanting to have the shortcut styles different than the source drawing, but why won't the source drawing settings come in when I specifically check the box to make them the same?

Ann Wingert, P.E.
Message 18 of 29
bpm255
in reply to: annw2

Bumping this old thread to verify - is this STILL a problem in 2018? I'm data referencing pipe networks into production sheets right now and cleanouts are coming up as inlets, inlets are all sized wrong, fire hydrants are coming up as kick blocks.

 

Going through and changing every one of them by hand, in every production file, is hours of wasted time. Can somebody confirm for me that this is the most up-to-date behavior of the software? Is there a better workaround?

Message 19 of 29
M_c3d
in reply to: bpm255

The situation arises because the sheet file you are data shortcutting into does not have the part lists and styles that the network was created with. The file that you are data shortcutting into must always have the part lists and styles you used to create the network.

 

The easiest way to do this is to ensure your sheet templates are built off your civil 3d template. My templates are all built on top of a customised OTB cicil 3d template.

 

The software works in this way to allow you to customise how the parts look in particular drawing, i.e. in one drawing it might be enabling works and in the next drawing (main drainage) it might now be existing.

 

It isn't a bug its just how the software works

 

 

Message 20 of 29
CADD__Man
in reply to: bpm255

bpm255

 

I have seen drop inlets sizes show differently from one drawing to the next but found that was due to how the network was generated. I found this problem mainly showed itself because the user created a pipe run then would select each structure and change sizes via the structure properties tab instead of swapping the part from the correctly sized part in your parts catalog. My theory on why this happens is because civil 3d assigns the UID to the object when it is first created but only updates the UID if the part is swapped. Just modifying the properties within the structure properties tab does not update the UID. When the pipe network is referenced into another drawing, civil 3d see's the UID and places the original part in place. It ignores the updated information. At least that was what we experienced. Once we started swapping parts we have not had any issues. 

 

In the early days of using pipe networks I would also see pipes/parts show differently on different machines. This was because users were modifying their local version of the pipe network catalog instead of referencing a version of the catalog stored on our server. So one one users machine a pipe would show up a an 8" PVC, and the same drawing opened via a different workstation would display as a 48" RCP. The users were not creating new parts they were independently modifying existing parts and not changing the UID and this was causing issues. Once we centralized our pipe network catalog and limited users who could modify it that problem also went away.

 

 

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