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Need Plan & Profile thoughts

13 REPLIES 13
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Message 1 of 14
jmola
580 Views, 13 Replies

Need Plan & Profile thoughts

i have asked this in the past, but in my company it is a re occuring situation that i haven't been able to work out to everyones satisfaction.  so i am asking for thoughts on this situation.  for the record, i am using c3d 12.  what i do is alot of road reahab.  we have to match the width of the existing road because of all the driveways, which are anything from concrete aprons to very expensive paver installations.  the other problem we have is the road itself does not have more than 1-2 ft difference in elevation.  so, due to the elevation issue, we are currently doing plan and profile, by that, i have left and right edge of pavements and a centerline profile, all on one sheet so we can actually see the grades at the driveways for puddling issues.  all that work so far is not too big a deal. what is, is when we have a curve.  the problem i have is that if i have 3 alignments going into the cuve, the inner curve alignment and outer curve alignment is different because of the curve lengths.  to fix this,  i have been using the super imposed profile into copied centerline profile view and adjusting all the information so that it is using the correct surface.

 

what i would like to know is if anyone else is doing the rehab and using multiple profiles?  and if so, what is their proceedure.  or if anyone else is doing something similar with the profiles.  i am hoping someone would be kind enough that if they do rehab work, they could post me a couple pdfs of what they look like?  i really need to show what others are doing regarding this kind of work.

 

thanks

 

13 REPLIES 13
Message 2 of 14
sboon
in reply to: jmola

California and some other jurisdictions have a standard for a "three line profie" which sounds like what you need.  Essentially you have a centerline profile in the middle of the page with existing and design elevations, a left side profile at the top of the sheet and a right side at the bottom.  There is an old post here talking about them.  A Google search might find more info, or someone else may be able to post an example of what they look like.

 

Steve
Please use the Accept as Solution or Kudo buttons when appropriate

Steve
Expert Elite Alumnus
Message 3 of 14
Neilw_05
in reply to: jmola

Well you are likely controlling your project from a baseline, most commonly a centerline. That is industry standard. If you need to incorporate vertical curves in your profiles, you don't want them to be applied at the edges of the roadway because that would require different curve lengths for inside vs. outside edges of the road through curves due to the difference in lengths to the tangent points.

 

I would agree that you need to translate those tangent point elevations to the centerline.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 4 of 14
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: jmola

I do alot of work like this too and have come to designing my edges as their own alignments and profiles and add expressionsions that reference the baseline stationing.

 

 

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 5 of 14
jmola
in reply to: Neilw_05

thats exactly what i have been doing. my process was to create alignments along the edge of pavement and creating a profile.  so i have 3, alignments and profiles.  then off to the side, i would copy the profile view from the centerline and super impose the edge of pavement information in that profile view.  correct the bands to represent the correct profile information.  the problem lies iwth the curves, and being radial to the centerline for stationing.  what i need is to be able to exagerate the lengths of the grid lines to make them longer or shorter.  

 

i have even gone on some jobs with making multile alignments.  starting at the begining to the pc. then starting the algnments for the curves, then new alignments at the pt's for the rest of the lines and have tme match the centerline pt stationing so  they match.  i make sure to put my matchlines for the sheets so the curve is by itself an the tangents are on their own sheets.  when i do the curves, i have the stationing for the centerline, but hte bands stationing are removed for the edge of pavemednts so that there is no mistake.  it is an aweful  lot of work.

Message 6 of 14
jmola
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

how do you get around the issue of the curves though? or are most of your roads fairly straight?  i have done it multiple ways as i said in previous posts and i can not seem to please everyone.

thanks

Message 7 of 14
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: jmola

You design true length ie along the curve, you report according to base line. when the contractor read elevation offset, the true length is some what irellevant because they are staking off the BL, so they get to the correct location.
most of the streets we do are straight. pleasing everyone. yes that can be tough. If you are doing 3 line and it has to be BL oriented reader have to understand the comperession and expansion for curves. They cannot have thier cake and eat it, Either three sets of stations or live with compression expansion. IMO. You tell me or have them tell you how to show 110 ft line or 95 ft line between station 1+00 and 2+00?
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 8 of 14
Neilw_05
in reply to: jmola

I think you'll have to consider the standards for 3 line profiles  in your area. What is common there?

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 9 of 14
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: sboon

If I am reading between the lines of Angles blog the three profile have common stationing, thus outter and inner curve lengths are compressed or expanded, as I have been saying below
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 10 of 14
jmola
in reply to: Neilw_05

i have not seen anyone else doing this in our area, thats the problem.  as someone posted above, i guess arizona and california require it.  i looked for sample plans to see if some thing is shown but i couldnt find anythng.  joe is correct, as he stated its compressed or expanded, but the program wont allow that as far a i know.  thats why i was asking if anyone else does this and for a sample on how to draft it. 

thanks

 

Message 11 of 14
jmola
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

right, but short of stopping the stationing before and starting the stationing after the curve, and drawing lines to create a grid that is correct for the curve, there is currently no real way to do it with the program.  so like you said, either they have to accept its expanded and compressed or true length and the stationing doesnt match after the 1st curve. 

 

i did have one time, i hd equal switch back curves and after the second curve we were almost back to equal staioning across, but that rarely happens.

 

thanks for your input

 

Message 12 of 14
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: jmola

The abilty to superimpose takes care of the compress/ expand, but it tricky to label as a design grade line. However, elevation boxes in a data band can help
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 13 of 14
jmola
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

yes i found that out with the design.  you are unable to lable any vertical curve when it is superimposed too.  i have been wrestling with this topic for many years, always hoping a solution might pop up.

Message 14 of 14
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: jmola

So you have a different VC at the eop that the center; seems like a place for a note and or show the actual profile for this location as a side bar
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS

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