Is it time for us to switch from LD to Civil 3D yet?

[millermccoy]

My company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all.

We do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we receive is done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces.

We don't use the hydrology or hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm.

I'm all for learning and the company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch if the program won't do all that LD does or if there are software issues that cause crashes.

I know this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find the dicussions. Thanks for your time and help!

Greg

[AllenJessup]

C3D does a whole lot more than LDT. But it does tend to crash. But I had crashes and other bugs in LDT too. It's too bad that you get the surfaces from the Surveyor. It's no problem brining them in to Civil 3D but C3D does a much better job with surfaces than LDT. Once the connectivity between C3D and the hydraulic packages improves you may want to reconsider which you use.

You're going to have to bite the bullet sometime. If you have the downtime and the money for training now I'd say take advantage while you can.

If you have specific questions. Post them and we'll try to answer.

Allen

[Anonymous]

I have at times had a great amount of frustration
with C3D crashing. My frustration is well documented. 😉

A good question to ask the users is, "Even with the
crashing, would you want to go back to LDT?"

I have driven C3D 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09
with a Yugo of a PC & I still say no.

--
John Mayo, PE

Civil 3D 2009 SP1, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2009 SP1
P-IV at 3.5 GHz,
2 GB Ram, Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram

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<ktm125> wrote in message
href="news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com...

My
company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've
been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all. We
do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we receive is
done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces. We don't use the hydrology or
hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm. I'm all for learning and the
company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch if the program won't
do all that LD does or if there are software issues that cause crashes. I know
this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find the dicussions. Thanks for
your time and help! Greg

[Anonymous]

The software is just downright Doggy.
face=Arial size=2>If you have to work with imagery or any other type of data
that uses a lot of resources you can bet on long wait times and memory related
crashes. Likewise gradings and corridors can overwhelm it. It is a resource hog
by any standard.

Sorry to rant but every time I'm asked to put
together a map for a preliminary study it takes hours due to crashing and slow
processing. I am P*****d off.

<ktm125> wrote in message
href="news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com...

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">My
company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've
been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all. We
do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we receive is
done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces. We don't use the hydrology or
hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm. I'm all for learning and the
company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch if the program won't
do all that LD does or if there are software issues that cause crashes. I know
this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find the dicussions. Thanks for
your time and help! Greg

[Anonymous]

You will need robust machines to handle the requirements of C3D, and some months of dogged determination to make the switch and learn C3D well enough to be truly productive with it. But, having said that, and having used LDT since the early incarnations, I would never, ever switch back. On the rare occasions when I am forced to open up LDT (old project that needs some work), I hate it. C3D does issue the inconvenient FATAL ERROR, but what it can do is SO much better than LDT that the short time it takes to fire up C3D again is nothing compared to the rewards of using it.

You will need someone to develop the basic styles and labels for you, and, of course, to teach you the basics. But you will, one day, be so happy that you went to the trouble. I promise.

[Matt.Anderson]

Greg -



Wow thats a loaded question. Here is how I would answer:



1. A transition from Land Desktop to Civil 3d is due. Since 2009 Land Desktop is the last version, you have probably three years before any $$ is lost as an asset value. We formally stopped Land Desktop with the 2007 version at our office for most projects. We have a few (read one) user who refuses to use Civil 3d. Our first Civil 3d project was on 2006 formally. We have had our share of Land Desktop and Civil 3d issues.



2. For your large-scale projects, the Land Desktop organization needed to really re-think an number of issues for drawing, and data organization, and data sharing.



3. Civil Storm should work well with Civil 3d...



4. A WELL planned, trained system of implementation should cover the issues of the move from one to the other. I would suggest contacting your reseller or someone like Engineered Efficiency (www.eng-eff.com) the people behind www.civil3d.com. They were enormously helpful during our transition.



5. I have yet to find something in Land Desktop that Civil 3d hasn't been able to complete. At this point, I feel that the tools in CIvil 3d make me and the company more competitive, more reactive, and better able to react and complete changes.



If you want to contact me, feel free to,



Matthew Anderson, PE

matt dot anderson at jaseng dot com

[Anonymous]

Allen,
Why is bad to receive a surface from a surveyor? As a veterened land surveyor and a future PE, I dang sure wouldn't want someone without any real field knowledge generating a surface for me!
Not fully understanding your position there and besides, LandXML works very well for transferring from LDD to Civil 3D. I've performed that operation many times.

ktm125,
As for your question. Someone said that's a loaded question, well yes. I was very frustrated, at first, but it all works out. LDD was and still is a good piece of software for what it can physically do. Civil 3D is in a different arena. DO NOT expect to just pick it up because of previous LDD experience. Yes the interface looks the same but underneath, well it would take hours or days to touch on it. It will certainly out perform LDD no question but how you use (meaning your procedures) determines outcome.

Corridor modeling is incredible and isn't just for roads, trust me.

I use EE as well and am very happy. I came to them after the fact, meaning I had a reseller for years and switched last year, but took the training elsewhere. Their knowledge base and unlimited video is a great tool. I have 2 young children, a business, and we live in and take care of my wife's 84+ year old parents so the flexibility in watching the videos is great.

Yes it crashes but have noticed the 'doggy' and 'crashing' more so on XP than Vista. For example, I have a loaded high end desktop running XP Pro SP3 and a normal laptop (HP dv 6871, I think) with a dedicated video card running Vista Ultimate. Both running Civil 3D 2009 Update 2 (or SP2) and the lower end laptop blows the desktop away and that's using the same file. Haven't experienced any 'doggy' or 'crashing' thus far.
It could be a hardware issue, don't know and don't have the time to chase it down.

I do think that Civil 3D has come a long way and will run very nice once 64 bit technology is the norm in terms of hardware and software.

I've gone on long enough but still am not understanding AllenJessup's position of surveyor's and surfaces? Blows my mind.
Do it!

Mark Driver

[Anonymous]

Mark:

I believe you mis-interpreted Allen's
remarks.  I read it as receiving surface information from LDD, not from "a
surveyor" using LDD.

My $.205 (subject to the new tax
hike!)

Bill

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<mdriver1> wrote in message
href="news:6132053@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6132053@discussion.autodesk.com...

Allen,
Why is bad to receive a surface from a surveyor? As a veterened land surveyor
and a future PE, I dang sure wouldn't want someone without any real field
knowledge generating a surface for me! Not fully understanding your position
there and besides, LandXML works very well for transferring from LDD to Civil
3D. I've performed that operation many times. ktm125, As for your question.
Someone said that's a loaded question, well yes. I was very frustrated, at
first, but it all works out. LDD was and still is a good piece of software for
what it can physically do. Civil 3D is in a different arena. DO NOT expect to
just pick it up because of previous LDD experience. Yes the interface looks
the same but underneath, well it would take hours or days to touch on it. It
will certainly out perform LDD no question but how you use (meaning your
procedures) determines outcome. Corridor modeling is incredible and isn't just
for roads, trust me. I use EE as well and am very happy. I came to them after
the fact, meaning I had a reseller for years and switched last year, but took
the training elsewhere. Their knowledge base and unlimited video is a great
tool. I have 2 young children, a business, and we live in and take care of my
wife's 84+ year old parents so the flexibility in watching the videos is
great. Yes it crashes but have noticed the 'doggy' and 'crashing' more so on
XP than Vista. For example, I have a loaded high end desktop running XP Pro
SP3 and a normal laptop (HP dv 6871, I think) with a dedicated video card
running Vista Ultimate. Both running Civil 3D 2009 Update 2 (or SP2) and the
lower end laptop blows the desktop away and that's using the same file.
Haven't experienced any 'doggy' or 'crashing' thus far. It could be a hardware
issue, don't know and don't have the time to chase it down. I do think that
Civil 3D has come a long way and will run very nice once 64 bit technology is
the norm in terms of hardware and software. I've gone on long enough but still
am not understanding AllenJessup's position of surveyor's and surfaces? Blows
my mind. Do it! Mark Driver

[Anonymous]

wfb,
Dang is that what the opinion rate is up to? LOL
I hope that's what he meant but I see this statement:

It's too bad that you get the surfaces from the Surveyor

and go what the heck?

If I am incorrect in my interpretation I truly apologize to you, AllenJessup.
We are human and make mistakes at least once in our lives right?

Mark Driver

[Anonymous]

Shweeeew...

--
Thanks, Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002,
sp 2
hp workstation xw4600
Intel Core Duo CPU
E7200 @2.53 GHz
3 GB
RAM
NIVDIA Quadro FX 1700 (512MB)

The mantra of a former Flamer:

If you are forced to eat an Elephant, don’t complain about it; Take one
bite at a time.

*****************************************************************************************
In
memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is
-
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken
from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar
page
*****************************************************************************************

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<mdriver1> wrote in message
href="news:6132053@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6132053@discussion.autodesk.com...

Allen,
Why is bad to receive a surface from a surveyor? As a veterened land surveyor
and a future PE, I dang sure wouldn't want someone without any real field
knowledge generating a surface for me! Not fully understanding your position
there and besides, LandXML works very well for transferring from LDD to Civil
3D. I've performed that operation many times. ktm125, As for your question.
Someone said that's a loaded question, well yes. I was very frustrated, at
first, but it all works out. LDD was and still is a good piece of software for
what it can physically do. Civil 3D is in a different arena. DO NOT expect to
just pick it up because of previous LDD experience. Yes the interface looks
the same but underneath, well it would take hours or days to touch on it. It
will certainly out perform LDD no question but how you use (meaning your
procedures) determines outcome. Corridor modeling is incredible and isn't just
for roads, trust me. I use EE as well and am very happy. I came to them after
the fact, meaning I had a reseller for years and switched last year, but took
the training elsewhere. Their knowledge base and unlimited video is a great
tool. I have 2 young children, a business, and we live in and take care of my
wife's 84+ year old parents so the flexibility in watching the videos is
great. Yes it crashes but have noticed the 'doggy' and 'crashing' more so on
XP than Vista. For example, I have a loaded high end desktop running XP Pro
SP3 and a normal laptop (HP dv 6871, I think) with a dedicated video card
running Vista Ultimate. Both running Civil 3D 2009 Update 2 (or SP2) and the
lower end laptop blows the desktop away and that's using the same file.
Haven't experienced any 'doggy' or 'crashing' thus far. It could be a hardware
issue, don't know and don't have the time to chase it down. I do think that
Civil 3D has come a long way and will run very nice once 64 bit technology is
the norm in terms of hardware and software. I've gone on long enough but still
am not understanding AllenJessup's position of surveyor's and surfaces? Blows
my mind. Do it! Mark Driver

[Anonymous]

I used to drink had tons of fun - but I can't see
going back.

Progress is in front of us

--
Thanks, Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002,
sp 2
hp workstation xw4600
Intel Core Duo CPU
E7200 @2.53 GHz
3 GB
RAM
NIVDIA Quadro FX 1700 (512MB)

The mantra of a former Flamer:

If you are forced to eat an Elephant, don’t complain about it; Take one
bite at a time.

*****************************************************************************************
In
memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is
-
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken
from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar
page
*****************************************************************************************

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<ktm125> wrote in message
href="news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com...

My
company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've
been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all. We
do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we receive is
done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces. We don't use the hydrology or
hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm. I'm all for learning and the
company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch if the program won't
do all that LD does or if there are software issues that cause crashes. I know
this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find the dicussions. Thanks for
your time and help! Greg

[Anonymous]

Joe,
Yeah I finally agree that Civil 3D is the future and in order to move forward one has to keep pace. I see the advancements in land surveying technology alone. You master that and Civil 3D, you're packed with the proper tools to make any project successful.

Put that you have the most updated experience in land surveying technology packed with Civil 3D on a resume for employment or business brochure and see the response you will get. Maybe not today but in the future for sure.

Here locally in Knoxville, TN, not many (this is just through general conversation) firms have made the leap but the firms who have are experiencing trouble with their staff making the transition. Some have had training too.

Oh and by the way, I used to drink a lot, have tons of fun and don't want to go back there either! LOL.

Mark Driver

[AllenJessup]

Sorry Mark,

Bill was right. I had only a minute to get the post in before I left and didn't have time to consider my phrasing. What I did mean was that C3D does a much better jobs on surfaces and that since they received the surfaces from outside thy wouldn't get the benefits of the new tinning engine in C3D. There are also other ways of bringing in a surface. I think I get better results from Import Data from Land Desktop.

I totally agree with you about wanting field knowledge being necessary to produce a good model. I started a quarter-century ago as a Rod Man for a surveying and engineering company. I've seen people create horrible surfaces from perfectly good survey data. No need to apologize. I knew that wasn't a well constructed post but couldn't resist getting in my 2 cents in before the end of the day.

Civil 3D is a fantastic piece of software but still has a few bugs. I do agree that it runs better on some systems than others but I don't tie it to the OS. I have a Sagar laptop that runs C3D better on XP pro than any other system I've worked with. Works fast, very few crashes. Sagars are built to run high end graphic programs like top end gaming and CAD. So maybe the care with which the components are matched makes a difference.

Anyway. I think greg is lucky that his company will pay for training. It's important and there is very few people (at least in the Northeast) putting out money for training right now.

Allen

[Anonymous]

🙂

Understood Neil, but would you want your boss to
take C3D away & leave you with nothing but LDT?

--
John Mayo, PE

Civil 3D 2009 SP1, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2009 SP1
P-IV at 3.5 GHz,
2 GB Ram, Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"neilw" <nwilsonATsec-landmgtDOTcom> wrote in message
href="news:6131879@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131879@discussion.autodesk.com...

The software is just downright Doggy.
If you have to work with imagery or any other
type of data that uses a lot of resources you can bet on long wait times and
memory related crashes. Likewise gradings and corridors can overwhelm it. It
is a resource hog by any standard.

Sorry to rant but every time I'm asked to put
together a map for a preliminary study it takes hours due to crashing and slow
processing. I am P*****d off.

<ktm125> wrote in message
href="news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com...

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">My
company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've
been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all.
We do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we
receive is done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces. We don't use the
hydrology or hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm. I'm all for
learning and the company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch
if the program won't do all that LD does or if there are software issues
that cause crashes. I know this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find
the dicussions. Thanks for your time and help!
Greg

[Anonymous]

I would prefer C3D over LDT. I also have Power
Civil which is my tool of choice so far. I'm still working with C3D to give it a
fair test though. More often than not I end up going to Power Civil to get
things done.

"John Mayo" <John(AT)ConklinAssociates.com> wrote in message
href="news:6132159@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6132159@discussion.autodesk.com...

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

🙂

Understood Neil, but would you want your boss to
take C3D away & leave you with nothing but LDT?

--
John Mayo, PE

Civil 3D 2009 SP1, LDT 2008 SP2, Raster Design 2009 SP1
P-IV at 3.5
GHz, 2 GB Ram, Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"neilw" <nwilsonATsec-landmgtDOTcom> wrote in message
href="news:6131879@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131879@discussion.autodesk.com...

The software is just downright Doggy.
If you have to work with imagery or any other
type of data that uses a lot of resources you can bet on long wait times and
memory related crashes. Likewise gradings and corridors can overwhelm it. It
is a resource hog by any standard.

Sorry to rant but every time I'm asked to put
together a map for a preliminary study it takes hours due to crashing and
slow processing. I am P*****d off.

<ktm125> wrote in message
href="news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com">news:6131767@discussion.autodesk.com...

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">My
company has given me the task of deciding if we should switch or not. I've
been using LD since 93 and have no problems with it and no crashes at all.
We do 1-300 acre site development projects. Most of the survey data we
receive is done in LD so it's nice to get their surfaces. We don't use the
hydrology or hyraulic features of LD but use Civil Storm. I'm all for
learning and the company will pay for training, but I don't want to switch
if the program won't do all that LD does or if there are software issues
that cause crashes. I know this is asked alot on here, but I couldn't find
the dicussions. Thanks for your time and help!
Greg

[millermccoy]

WOW...Thanks all!

Great info here...Yeah it's slow here, so the owner thought it might be a good time to switch...so I will recommend that we do, but with new computers since ours are a little old.

Can someone please give the basics for the computer? Thanks!

[Sinc]

The benefits of C3D go up with larger teams. Count on having someone who spends most of their time working on the template, tracking down problems, figuring out how to do new stuff, etc. This isn't so bad if you have a large team, and only one person ends up spending lots of admin time on Civil 3D. However, the one-man shop can get hit pretty hard.

It gets much easier once you have a decent template, and learn the basics of maneuvering around the program, but the initial transition can be frustrating.

And of course, a good deal depends on how "technologically-savvy" you are... One of the most-difficult things about transitioning to Civil 3D is figuring out why it crashes when it crashes, and determining what (if anything) you can do differently to avoid the crashes.

But it is definitely more-powerful, and many things are much better than Land Desktop. At this point, we don't even consider Land Desktop to be usable software, on any level, for any task.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[AllenJessup]

You really can't talk basics for Civil 3D. Find out how much you can spend and then try to talk your boss out of more. Then buy the best you can for the money! From what I've read lately in this group get the best Nvidia card you can afford. I'll post the my specs below.

Allen Jessup, Rockland County Highway Department

Windows XP Pro, SP3

Dell Precision T7400, Xenon X5460, 3.2 GHz, 4 (3.25) GB Ram w/3GB switch

NVIDIA Quadro FX 4600, 768MB, Powerdraft OpenGL drivers Ver 6.14.11.6939

C3D-SP2, LDT, RD 2009

[Matt.Anderson]

Right now I am running Civil 3d 2009 on a XI computer AMD 3800 single-processor, 4 GB ram, Quadro FX540 card, with XP Sp3. I run fine with it, and rarely crash (lots of practice here)

If you purchase a new computer, I would suggest a 64bit OS, with as much RAM and video card RAM as possible.

[Sinc]

I just jumped up from an AMD 4000+ single processor to an i7 940. The difference is so absolutely amazing that it would blow your mind!

And I am very happy with my GeForce 9600 GTS w/1GB RAM, available for the ultra-high price of $150... If I were heavily into rendering or something like that, I might want something more, but for normal C3D usage, I couldn't see spending any more on a video card.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com