insertion point

[Anonymous]

Got a debate going on, what has been the standard for the insertion point when inserting items into model space?

I say the standard has been 0,0 unless of course it is something specific with specific coordinates and a specific location within the drawing.......

[AllenJessup]

Yeah. What else would it be. Unless you're in the OSCS (OZ Standard Coordinate System)?

Allen

[Anonymous]

well I had a debate with an engineer who was concerned when I told him the drawing he gave me to insert into another drawing didn't line up.

The drawing he gave me was from an outside source. He said one of his other CAD people was able to get it to line up by inserting it and then moving it around.

I told him thats fine but it defeats the idea of the insertion point. One should'nt be inserting a drawing and then having to "move it around" to get it to line up......

[slant]

i'm curious what this person with whom you are debating attests as the "standard" insertion point if he says it should be something other than 0,0....

[blt]

If both drawings are not on the same coordinate system, they won't line up.  If you don't have a conversion or at least 2 known points in each drawing that are the same points on the ground, you're just guessing that you have them translated and rotated correctly.  But you can bring them together if, like I said, you have two known points.

[mathewkol]

As far as I'm concerned there IS no other insertion point other than 0,0.

That said, if the data was not surveyed to a known system, it's a crap shoot, but all players will stlil insert to 0,0 unless someone has moved the data inside the DWG or if another player has surveyed using a different system.

[Joe-Bouza]

It is probably not as much a debate as may be miscommunicating.

You will receive data from different people that can have varied base points. Coordinating this straight away will save headaches down the road. Particularly when others begin referencing that data and may not be privy to the altered state. At a minimum. One person on the team should be responsible for moving the data so it Refs in at 0,0 zero degrees, and call the other parties to see what they can do to lessen the tension on delivery day.

[JeffPaulsen]

Don't forget the Z coordinate (0,0,0). You don't want to accidentally change the elevation.

When I share data that IS in the same coordinate system with others we always use 0,0,0 as the insertion point. Almost all engineers I work with understand this.

[wfberry]

Not wanting to start a war here, but the way I see it, that last 0 (zero) has just as much chance of changing the elevation as not using it.  Either way, perhaps using the Elevation command may be in order before inserting.

Bill

[JeffPaulsen]

When I copy something to the clip board or use the wblock command I specify an insertion point of 0,0,0. Then when I paste or insert that into another drawing I again use an insertion point of 0,0,0. That way I am assured of not changing the elevations.

You do bring up a good point Bill. If you do not know the origin of the drawing you are inserting, you need to open it and verify the elevation (ELEV command) is set to 0.

[Anonymous]

How do you insert an archetectural drawing of a floor plan, or a MEP drawing for plumbing?  Usually these types of drawings are square to the sheet of paper, and not aligned to the site.

I do use 0,0,0 when dealing with most surveyors and civils, and always in the World Cordinate System.  With Archies & other engineering firms, you gotta look at what they give you and find a common insertion point (like the SW cor of the building or whatever) and sometimes have to take into account the scale factor of arch units vs civil units.

Reid

[Joe-Bouza]

Hi Reid

I kinda glossed over that when making one person responsible for moving data. If I have to use architects or MEP drawings  I will break my code of overlay and "ATTACH" in the xref. I would have a separate xref  (X- A & MEP.dwg) bring in at 1/12 and align to the civil basemap. Now if I attach X- A & MEP.dwg to any civil drawing at 0,0,0 everyone comes along for the ride in the correct location.

[AllenJessup]

We could always rehash the old arguments of "Why don't architects draw in real world coordinates?" or "Why don't engineers draw in inches like sane people?".

Allen

[AllenJessup]

I always encourage the use of State Plane coordinates and we require it of our consultants. But sometimes you get whatever is available and sometimes you get drawing that aren't right. It's actually more dangerous to get a drawing that's "almost" in the right coordinate system and not notice it than to get one that's obviously not.

You may require someone to use a coordinate system. But it's much more difficult to require that they are competent enough to do it!

Allen

[slant]

Just as a side note, there is no chance that the elevation will change if you fail to specify the last zero when you insert.  AutoCAD reads an insertion point of 0,0  as 0,0,0.  So in future you can spare yourself the extra two key strokes!  🙂

[MarySeufert]

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@AllenJessup wrote:

We could always rehash the old arguments of "Why don't architects draw in real world coordinates?" or "Why don't engineers draw in inches like sane people?".

Allen

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Now I know why I'm always arguing with myself! Nope, I know why both are right and wrong
~ Mary

[JeffPaulsen]

The reason for the Z coordinate in the insertion point is in case an elevation is set in a drawing. If you set the elevation to 100, for example, then insert a block at 0,0 the block will be at elevation 100.

[JeffPaulsen]

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@JeffPaulsen wrote:

 If you do not know the origin of the drawing you are inserting, you need to open it and verify the elevation (ELEV command) is set to 0.

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I need to make a correction to the above statement that I made earlier. You need to check the base point using the BASE command, not the elevation.