I know I'll be taged a Flammer for this but I don't care at this point

[Anonymous]

Here is a snippet from my latest "send erro
report"

@#%TYW&*@(Y*IU^WQ*&^

This product sucks. You can't tell me you
developers are not bombing out, getting hungup and generaly not getting this
application to work. you'ld be hard pressed to convince me.

face=Arial size=2>

--
Joe

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E.
Civil 3D 2008
LDT 2008
Win XP pro
v 2002,
sp 2
hp workstation
xw4100
*****************************************************************************************
In
memory of the King of Work-arounds
"The only Constant is Change".

"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is
-
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken
from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar
page
*****************************************************************************************

[Anonymous]

You make some good criticisms about thne availability of support and the
complexity of the software Bill. But really if you will be more productive
after learning the software isn't it worthwhile? You have to look at the
long term benefits as well.

wrote in message news:5971020@discussion.autodesk.com...
Michael,

Just what kind of intersection are you talking about? Hours? You must be a
slow learner or are you talking about Geopak?

the hardest part about a intersection in C3D is laying out the Geometrics.
Once that is done using standard Autocad commands then C3D takes about 10 or
20 mins to do the rest. Tops! Then you can design (change grade/elevations)
until your hearts desire. But hours! I don't think so.

If you have a lot on intersections then I would recommend the software that
Laurie would sell you to do all on them in about 5 min. Check out Angel
Espinoza's blog on a demo. Oh and don't forget that the learning curve for
C3D is measured in days not months as MS/Geopak/power Civil. And you don't
need to fly to some far off place to learn it.

Oh and just who is your local reseller? What you say there are none? Have
you seen the cost to fly places now a days?

And how much per day are you going to charge me for that months worth of
training? Come on Micheal, please tell the C3D World just how much is the
training per day? Lets see from your web site I definitely now see how you
guys make you mortgage payments! Holly cow batman! if I lived in FL,TX, IL
or AL you would have me covered!

http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Training/Find+Courses/Scheduled+Courses/Schedules.htm

See it for your own eyes! To be proficient at any one product at Bentley is
like going back to college for my BS in ASCE!

All this just to learn how to design a intersection in minutes! Must be nice
to have all of those bottomless government contracts to pay for all of this
training.......

Nice gig if you can get it I guess. 😉

Bill Neuhauser P.E.
Alignex inc.


p.s. Been though the Bently training before and will never again! Unless
the govenement is paying for it! Then maybe...NOT!




Re: I know I'll be taged a Flammer for this but I don't care at this point
I will agree with Gary, Our documentation for training is hard to find for
anyone not familiar with Bentley (which BTW is 80-90 % of all new PowerCivil
users )

While it may take hours to create an intersection in C3D and the lessons to
do it may involve dozens of pages numerous alignments and surfaces, but it
is documented in many places.

Ours simply does it in seconds, however documentation is available just hard
to track down.

Also Gary knows he can call me and actually speak to a live Bentley Rep 🙂

Michael Barkasi
Bentley Civil / Geospatial Specialist

[Anonymous]

neilw,
Thanks for the information as I have heard from other users much of the same things but you provided much more detail.
Is it possible to contact you and discuss this further offline?
My contact information's below and I will e-mail my business number.

How about hardware resources? I have read on a Bentley DG that it is still a 32 bit software BUT if you have a 64 bit OS IT WILL utilize the avaiable memory not being used elsewhere. I saw a screen shot where you can view MicroStation's memory management (PowerCivil may not allow this) for hardware tweaks. Oh and this information was from Keith Bentley as he chimed in to a user's questions. Interesting that he steps down to a users level. To me that shows he's concerned on the in's and out's of the software. Anyway please tell me more as I am researching this very hard plus I like Haested Methods for SWM and waterline modeling. Nothing compares to that.
Mark Driver, TN RLS & EI
Landmark Surveying Associates, Inc.
mdriver@lesainc.com
Civil 3D 2008 SP2
Civil 3D 2009
Custom Machine, XP Pro SP2, 3GB

[Anonymous]

I'll be out of town for about 2 weeks but when I get back I'd be happy to
answer any questions as time permits. As for performance, I can say that the
response to edits to the model are phenominal..almost instant in my
experience. In another post I shared my experience in working with a large
Lidar dataset. I was very impressed with the performance. As far as
utilizing 64 bit resources, as far as I know from my inquiries that only
applies to certain functions such as graphic rendering, but I am not the one
to answer questions in that regard.

There are so many other nice features in Microstation alone that I could go
into. Consider the ability to set display order by layer as well as to
assign draw order to XREF's and raster images. The Accudraw feature
virtually eilminates having to draw any construction elements. Everytime I
go back to Autocad I REALLY miss it! Honestly I prefer to work in the
Microstation environment now that I am used to it. The tools are very
robust, area inquires by flood, measure distances along an element etc.

I could go on but if you do a search on my posts in the Civil 3D and
Cadmanager forums you can read more.

wrote in message news:5970952@discussion.autodesk.com...
neilw,
Thanks for the information as I have heard from other users much of the same
things but you provided much more detail.
Is it possible to contact you and discuss this further offline?
My contact information's below and I will e-mail my business number.

How about hardware resources? I have read on a Bentley DG that it is still a
32 bit software BUT if you have a 64 bit OS IT WILL utilize the avaiable
memory not being used elsewhere. I saw a screen shot where you can view
MicroStation's memory management (PowerCivil may not allow this) for
hardware tweaks. Oh and this information was from Keith Bentley as he chimed
in to a user's questions. Interesting that he steps down to a users level.
To me that shows he's concerned on the in's and out's of the software.
Anyway please tell me more as I am researching this very hard plus I like
Haested Methods for SWM and waterline modeling. Nothing compares to that.
Mark Driver, TN RLS & EI
Landmark Surveying Associates, Inc.
mdriver@lesainc.com
Civil 3D 2008 SP2
Civil 3D 2009
Custom Machine, XP Pro SP2, 3GB

[ACADuser]

Bill,

Compared to what we paid for C3D training, $1350 for 3 days (24 hours) is a bargain When we spoke to the company that provided our training, we were told that we would be getting a "discount". We paid $1440 per person for (3) 8 hour days of training on C3D, 😮 . If you don't mind, what is the cost for training in your area ?

[mike.barkasi]

I am breaking the law of Bentley.. However to dispell myths.
PowerCivil onsite training for 3 days 1-12 studends is approx 5K + expenses. I have taught many of these classes.

So if you have more than 4 students I believe we are a deal !

Mike Barkasi
Bentley Civil / Geospatial Specialist

[Anonymous]

That is three days to learn one small aspect of your software!

Three days of C3D Essentials covers everything from importing points, alignments, profiles, FG profiles, Assemblies, sub Assemblies, sections, parcels, grading (this sections needs more) pipes and some on general vault/data sharing! (Did I forget something?)

Your class on Power Civil covers what?

Site Design with PowerCivil
Digital Terrain Modeling
Power Civil Modeler
Designing with Power Civil Modeler
Editing with Power Civil Modeler
Drainage Design
Water and Sewer
Plans Preparation

Nothing on parcels? Nothing on roads? Nothing on Survey, pts....... etc (That comes from another department 😉 ) This is all about another 9 days of class if not more?.... Not too mention Microstations itself? My students got there Autocad training from their local College? What about yours? Send them to Florida for a week of sun and MS...... I can't find one college nearby that has even heard of MS let alone teach it.... .

and don't forget that most of the local DOT's have prereqs that require you to have used there that part of the software for 3 months before you can take the next class....

Oh and will that be in XM or V8 2004?


Bill N.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget the shipping and handling to Florida? We (your local VARs) are local, the shipping even at $3.83/gallon is still cheaper than air/rental/hotel and food!

Air to Ft. Lauderdale = $262 +/- actually a pretty cheap rate!
Car at $35/day x4 = $140
Hotel = $150/day x 4 = $600
Food = $40/day x 4 = $160 (this could be a lot more)
Training = $1350 3 days

Grand total= +/- $2500 / person for 3 days. Now lets times this by 4 and we are talking a cool 10 grand!


How cheap are you now Michael?


Bill N.

[ACADuser]

Bill,

>>>>>
That is three days to learn one small aspect of your software!
.........Three days of C3D Essentials covers everything .......
>>>>>

This is where I think you are mistaken. In-depth training can also be found for Civil 3D. For example, the company that provided our training offers a 1 day class on intersection design (this is not the only in-depth class they offer). Furthermore, 3 days of essentials is equivalent to performing the tutorials supplied with the software, with the exception of being coached along and being able to ask questions. Also time spent answering questions is limited in order for the instructor to cover all of the exercises. IMHO, trying to cover all of C3D's capabilities in 3 days and expect the user to walk away knowing how use it when he gets back to the office is completely unrealistic. I'm not saying the training is not warranted only that it is what it is "essentials".

ACADuser (and soon to be C3Duser)

[mike.barkasi]

Bentley Eluminate training, and Bentley Learn..Oh yea...roads are in site modeler.

[Anonymous]

To be fair to Michael, I think this is absolutely correct. We've
abandoned the three-day class or one-day class as a viable model for
actual knowledge acquisition and retention. It just doesn't work. It
doesn't matter the software or the instructor, the delivery mechanism is
flawed.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
The Site: www.eng-eff.com
The Blog: www.civil3d.com
The Book: www.masteringcivil3d.com
C3D 08SP2/09 Mac Book Pro, XP SP2, 4GB

[Anonymous]

The point is that C3D learning curve and training cost are way less than any Bentley product you might sell.... And to say otherwise is telling me you have never really been down that road as a consultant trying to learn your software! Which I have..... 3 days of C3D Essentials will get you going... and you don't have to learn MS before hand.

Two words for thought, "Criteria files"

To anyone interested in PwCivil:

Have your local reseller send you a quote.... what you say they aren't in the book? Oh ya you don't live in FL do you? Sorry about that you got to fly to FL for your training.....

Bill N.

[mike.barkasi]

when people hear its me coming to town, they spare no expense.. 🙂

[Anonymous]

Being a small firm our strategy is to get me and perhaps one other person
trained well enough to be productive. From there as we gain experience we
can be the go-to guys for new ones rather than hiring trainers. The new guys
can use the online tutorials to get the basics and then the experienced guys
can walk them through the real stuff. The idea is to get a seed planted and
the rest will follow naturally. This should hopefully be an effective yet
economical strategy. It worked with Land Desktop.

wrote in message news:5971109@discussion.autodesk.com...
Don't forget the shipping and handling to Florida? We (your local VARs) are
local, the shipping even at $3.83/gallon is still cheaper than
air/rental/hotel and food!

Air to Ft. Lauderdale = $262 +/- actually a pretty cheap rate!
Car at $35/day x4 = $140
Hotel = $150/day x 4 = $600
Food = $40/day x 4 = $160 (this could be a lot more)
Training = $1350 3 days

Grand total= +/- $2500 / person for 3 days. Now lets times this by 4 and we
are talking a cool 10 grand!


How cheap are you now Michael?


Bill N.

[Anonymous]

I thought you were the delivery mechanism?
Just jerkin your chain.
Both products take quite a bite of learning and a lot of support to get a group up and running.
Our firm has been through a transition to Microstation+Geopak for the Highway group and a C3D implementation Led by James and the people at EE.
The support offered by Bentley is really lacking in depth and ease of access.
Seriously they quit the support role when they blew up the reseller chain.
Our firm had a great amount of success nearly 2 years ago with James's help.
Which ever way you decide to go just realize it's not going to be easy.
And to the troll that frequents this group, thank you for finally connecting my company with an Account Rep after 2 years of trying on our part to resolve billing issues.
Barkasi your support system Sux and your firm is extraordinarily difficult to deal with.
But you guys are proud, I'll give you that.

[mike.barkasi]

Bill,

Your math is as bad as my spelling..

the class is a flat fee of approx 5K

Expenses are extra, so the 1350 you calculated would be added to the 5 K. for a total of 6350 for a maximum of 12 people (we supply the machines at no additional costs). That is less than one seat of Civil 3D!

Also take a look at PowerCivil we do not use criteria. we use a composite section. Additionally the latest release of GEOPAK uses the same Roadway designer that is in Inroads (criteria is also still available).

BTW, thanks for the compliment on the drawing I posted above.

Mike Barkasi
Bentley Civil / Geospatial Specialist

[mike.barkasi]

John,

Dont know quite why you feel the support stinks.. I only ever new of the one issue you brought up.

The reason we are proud is we know we have a good system with the direction our product development is going. Additionally 2 of the owners are on the floor writing code just as they were from the beginning, If I need something I can go talk with them directly. The company is awsome to work for and attracts good people.

Take care,

Mike

[Anonymous]

So Michael are you paying the airfare and hotel and cars and food for the 12 guys to get them down to your neck of the woods? Or do you have a big enough house that they can stay with you? 5k if they are all from the same company. What if you only need to send 2 or three? Still have to pay for shipping... what's the cost for one seat of PC and MS? And the subscription?

Tell me where the guys from ND or SD or MN or IA go for training? I guess for a small fee you could come to them! So what's the room and computers cost for that one? Daily fee for your time?

Michael don't matter how you try to cover it up your software's overhead is way above anything else out there. Period.

Did you ever mention the time the DOT's have spent with the Bentley guys developing their standards/seed files, criteria files etc that are needed to run any of your software? The ND dot spent a year and half with a team of there guys and yours developing all that was needed to roll out your software a year and half! Only a DOT can afford that, only they!

I wonder how many guys within a 1000 miles really know how to make a "Criteria file" ? That don't work for the DOT?

Man, enough feeding of the Trolls. Maybe I should go over the the Bentley newsgroups and hang out a bit! Then again after my first posting I would be banned for life! The post would be removed faster than a Bentley trainer taking your money...;) It just dawned on me why you guys bought Haestads, only they charged more for there training.....$1500/day/person... you guys had to make sure you're the highest....

As for new hires, good luck finding anyone with any MS experience or any that have even heard of PC..... funny thing is I don't know if any of my current clients that have to use MS/Geopak that are using or even thinking about PC.. We probably have more Eagle pt users than all MS/GP/PC in our area. I'll have to talk to one of my AD friends that used to work for you and see if he knows? Smart guy knows his stuff, uses C3D now and loves it! Go figure?

Maybe you guys can come up with some C3D interface like Eagle pt did! Pays the bills.

3 DOTs and counting.........see the light at the end of the tunnel? It's actually a train....... 🙂

http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=427

Old news, but I love that they are just across the river.....



Bill N.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know if AutoDesk has a paid troll that operates in the Bentley
Newsgroups?

Just a thought.


Bill

[mike.barkasi]

I travel to your house Bill... no need to pack the band up 🙂

"From the end of the world to your town"

[Anonymous]

im new hear but reading through some of these replies i don't see why people are having so many issues with civil 3D crashing im running 2009 version of it and get very few crashes which i usually fix by running and audit i haven't used any of the other programs to compare it with but civil 3D does everything i need it to do except well the road details but that's why i have advanced road design