How to determine how many pipe networks to create?

[clemay]

I am working on creating an existing pipe network (stormwater) from objects, invert data, size, type and length given.  M

My question is how do I know where the start and end is and if I need to create more than one network for my project.  I have a current project location and I am assuming I am to create a network for the entire location?

I have attached a couple pics for you to see what I am working with at a couple different scales so you can get a good idae of my project.

[wfberry]

You should decide about how many networks you want (or need).  Remember after you complete your first series of pipe(s), use the "EDIT PIPE NETWORK" to stay in the same network.  Unless it is very large, do it all in one network.  Now you should have two networks it you have a STORM and a SANITARY sytem.

Bill

[clemay]

Thanks alot.  I appreciate your help.  We are only working with stormwater for this project location.  SO I should just have one network. correct?

which I am working on now.

I wasn't sure which parts list to use for the stormwater,  Do you have a recommendation for which one to use?

Also, for the areas where the water travels through the ditches in the network, is there a particualr way to apply the ditches to the network?  They are defined in the drawing with top and bottom inverts, size and length as well.  I just don't recall seeing them as an option in any of the parts list I looked at so far.

[BrianHailey]

If you are doing a very large area and will be data referencing the pipes, I would recommend breaking them into multiple networks (for most design situations, I recommend one network per utility type).

One thing to remember is that pipes in different networks can't connect together. Since you are doing storm, make sure that everything that daylights to the same outlet are in the same network. You can have multiple outlets in the same network as well. 

You have to find a balance between managing networks and ease to use.

Hope this helps.

[clemay]

THANKS TO THE PEOPLE THAT RESPONDED...

AND TO THE OTHER 80+ WHO JUST READ IT, KNEW AN ANSWER AND DID NOT LEAVE ANYTHING.  I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOUR ISSUES ARE OR WHAT SPECIFIC CRITERIA YOU DEMAND TO LEAVE A RESPONSE. YOU THINK YOU ARE SO SUPERIOR BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE SOFTWARE IN AND OUT, WELL YOU STARTED WITHOUT THAT KNOWLEDGE AND I AM SURE YOU STILL HAVE QUESTIONS OF YOUR OWN................ WELL PEOPLE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. AND I HAVE BEEN DRAFTING AND CUSTOMIZING AUTOCAD SINCE 1989.  I AM JUST NEW TO C3D.  AND I HAVE DONE THE TUTORIALS AND READ BOOKS AND SIGNED UP FOR THE COURSE.  SO ITS NOT LIKE I AM JUST POSTING QUESTIONS THAT I CAN RECEIVE ANSWERS IN VIA F1 OR ANY OF THE BOOKS I HAVE.  SO I COME HERE.  BUT FOR SOME REASON, I HAVE NOT GOTTEN A DECENT NUMBER OF REPLIES EXCEPT A FEW AWESOME PEOPLE THAT ARE HUMBLE AND REALIZE THAT EVERYONE IS HERE TO LEARN.  THAT IS WHY THIS DISCUSSION GROUP WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE.  TO HELP OTHERS.  NOW I HAVE RECEIVED GREAT HELP AND I HAVE GIVEN GREAT HELP. 

I HAVE ALSO HEARD FROM AN AUTODESK EXPERT (NOT WITHIN THIS GROUP), THAT WHEN YOU POST QUESTIONS HERE, TO MAKE SURE YOU POST A QUESTION THAT IS NOT , LETS SAY, IN THE FIRST CHAPTER OF THE BOOK, OR THE FIRST LINE IN THE F1 WHEN SEARCHED.  AND TO GIVE AS MUCH INFO AS YOU CAN ON YOUR QUESTION.  SO I THOUGHT I WAS DOING THAT.

SO IF YOUR A PERSON WITH GREAT C3D KNOWLEDGE, AND WOULD LIKE TO HELP ME OUT BY INFORMING ME OF SOME DO'S AND DONT'S WHEN POSTING FOR HELP IN THE GROUPS, I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY FEEDBACK.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL THE RESPONDERS AND PEOPLE THAT REALLY COMMIT AND PASS ON THE KNOWLEDGE SURROUNDING THIS SOFTWARE.  AND THANKS TO THE PEOPLE THAT LOOKED AND KNEW THE ANSWER AND JUST CLICKED AWAY.  WITHOUT YOU, I WOULD HAVE NEVER WRITTEN THIS MESSAGE.

[davidmoore]

Why are you screaming?

[clemay]

I am just upset on how the replies and feedback has been in the discussion groups as of late. When you see that 200 users have read your question and know half of them know the answer and just click away without any type of feedback just upsets me. I try to help and give input when I can or give direction and the resource needed to research the question at hand. I just have not seen a great reply count across the board as of late...that's all.

CAD On!

[sfore · Accepted solution]

"SO IF YOUR A PERSON WITH GREAT C3D KNOWLEDGE, AND WOULD LIKE TO HELP ME OUT BY INFORMING ME OF SOME DO'S AND DONT'S WHEN POSTING FOR HELP IN THE GROUPS, I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY FEEDBACK."

DO appreciate any help....DON'T scream-type to the viewers.  I've felt your pain, but you have to realize just because many viewed your post, a large majority may not feel confident enough to steer you in the right direction.

Keep your Storm (existing and proposed) in same Network.  If Sanitary and Storm is a combined system (which some old systems are), then keep in same Network to be able to connect parts.  Otherwise separate Networks for Sanitary and Storm. 

As far as parts list, in my Template, I've created an Existing and Proposed list for Sanitary, Storm, Water with accompanying Styles and Rules set as well as label styles for Structures and Pipes (Plan, Profile and Sections).

For your Storm Lines that dump into ditches....The way I have always done them is create my alignment that included the structures, pipes and ditch line area.  What I mean is when I do an AML Project for Mine Portals, I may have an existing or regraded ditch that leaves the Portal, then dumps into a Catch basin then flows through a Storm system through town and eventually dumps out of a headwall or even into another ditch further down.  So, my profile shows ditch, structures and pipes and maybe ditches again.

Also, beware of a balooned Template size by adding unecessary structures/pipes and all sizes in Parts List that rarely use them.  If your design needs a certain size structure that isn't normal, you can always add it when needed.  Build your parts list with most commonly used structures and pipes and sizes.

Good Luck!   

[clemay]

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your input.  My network is solely stormwater.  When building my network, I noticed that my structures (drop inlet) are at zero rotation and not perpendicular to the pipes created.  Is there a section in the rule set to apply this to or is this done manually?

[sfore]

To add, I always Station 0+00 at bottom of Sanitary and Storm because generally thats the way Contractors build.  If you place your network parts starting at bottom of slope, so that your structures read MH A-1, MH A-2 etc..., then you have to toggle the upslope/downslope toggle in the Layout Tools so your rules recognize direction.  I also pick my longest run as "Main Trunk Line"  Any spur that dumps in, would be a separate alignment and Name (MH A-1a, MH A-2a or MH B-1, MH B-2).  The name I use really depends on scenarios, but I try and make it as clear as possible for contractors and reviewers.  I use Letters for Sanitary and Numbers for Storm (DI 1-1, DI 1-2).

[sfore]

I don't think rules has anything to do with Structure rotation angle.  When I place Structures, the first one is always 0 degrees, but everyone after is at a different angle depending on direction and severity of angle deflection.  Not sure if this will help or even if it matters, but my Structure Feature Setting of 'Angle', the unit is set to degree.  Check yours.  You can always grip the structure to rotate it to whatever angle you desire.

[clemay]

I wanted to verify your recommendation for the ditches that need to be applied to my existing storm pipe network I am building.  I have placed a clip of my drawing and called out the pipes with a "P", which are the magenta colored lines and a "D" for the ditches, which the yellow represents the Ditch top and the green represents the ditch toe.  I am still unsure of what to use in the Network Layout Tools given to use for the ditches so I can effectively impliment the ditches in my network.  The ditches make up at least 50% of the network.  You know.down here in Nawlins.....we live under sea level and all....SO ditches and canals are a commonly used means of water transportation, for storm and sewer.  But in my case, this is strictly a stormwater network we are working on.

There are also sections of the network that do not connect to the main trunk line of the network.  So I am wondering if there is data missed from the survey company we paid for this data, or if that is common and there are ways to apply this to the network?

Thanks again, and any feedback will greatly be appreciated.

[sfore]

see pic.  you won't use anything from the pipe network tools for ditches.  create your alignment for your pipe network and through centerline of ditch and let the profile show existing ditch grade (or proposed ditch grade if ditch is being regraded). 

not sureof your scope of work and/or if you're proposing new storm lines or if you're just profiling existing storm lines and ditches to show what current drainage grades are.  if you're proposing new pipes into existing drainage ditches or proposed regraded ditches, set your pipe invert (pipe that flows into the ditch) at whatever existing grade or proposed grade is of the ditch.  maintain positive drainage.  from looking at your pic at top and toe lines, ditch is either a flat bottom ditch or no centerline ditch shots were shot.  if no ditch centerlines were shot, then you're going to have to create your alignment and snap alignment at existing ditch inverts at ends.  the surface triangulation between toe lines will show in profile what the ditch is doing.

[castled071049]

Just to throw in my 2 cents worth on the number of storm networks to have, our rule is this: We create one network for all of the pipes that have a common outlet. So, if your site drains to two different locations (outlets) then we would create two different storm networks.

One of the main reasons for this is that exporting the network to, say, Storm Sewers (or other storm analysis software) the smaller the network the more manageable the analysis becomes. And importing back to C3D requires less hand manipulation (there's always some when coming back in) and is, therefore, easier.

Just a thought.

[graf_p]

I think Brian Hailey answered your question as well as anyone could. It's worth saying that a lot of people read this discussion group as they find time in their day as they are working. I'm waiting for my drawings to plot right now. Finding time in the day to write a concise reply can be hard to come by. So don't get too upset if 200 people read your post and only 1 person replies.

Paul