All Surveyors and users of the Survey module in Civil3D,
I want to get as much feedback as possible on the ups and downs of the Survey module in Civil3d. In doing so I am hoping Autodesk will listen and do some major updates. So I need input from as many as possible. One example is that Civil3d does not like the resection.
I'd really appreciate all the help on this and maybe, just maybe we can get a proper update that is over due.
Many thnaks
Allan
OK I''ll bite
"One example is that Civil3d does not like the resection."
I would have to ask what issues your having with a resection, as every data collection software (SurveCE Trimble/TDS) that I have every used has a resection built in and provides a NEZ position upon completion within the fieldbook file.
Personally the only thing that I would like to be able to do in the survey data base is have the ability to rotate a network individually (but there are work arounds to this). All the other things are part of C3D and not a part of the Survey Tab. Like Parcel/Line tables with the ability to edit the text just as you would if the text were on the line (I really hate having to explode line/curve tables for a single second or hundredth or other rounding errors). Otherwise I see no real major issues.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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Matt,
I would have to say I agree with you there, didn't really think about that since I have beat it into my brain to take it as far as possible and then make the necessary edits.
It might even be nice to be able to make edits to a figure and process a single figure instead of all of them.
Personally I prefer the old school method of figure edits, I do it all in ascii/fbk taking everthing as far as possible. Then do everything else in the drawing. By that time I have it at 80% or so.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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I am not a Surveyor - but as a Survey Cad Tech, I think it would be nice if there were a simple way to exclude a figure from a drawing. We started using linework earlier this year, and it's going ok for me so far. Our crews are getting accustomed to the new coding. Occasionally, I get figures that are created from points where I don't want figures, e.g. if the crew collects several different catch basin centers (our code is CB), I will get a figure that connects the center of all the boxes. If I removed it and delete it from the drawing, it comes back after reprocessing. What I end up doing is editing the codes so that a figure is not created (adding a number to each code, i.e. CB1,CB2,etc.). It would be nice if I could just suppress the figure or have it not show in the drawing. There may be an easier way to exclude them that I haven't discovered yet, but that's what I do in the meantime.
Dont draw the catch basin - use a standard symbol as a description key and remove CB from your figure list. Honestly do you need that much detail, most structure in my are are typical in nature (sure there's that special one on occasion) but for the most part they are about 5 structure types.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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I don't really have that option - I just draw what they give me and show what they ask me to show. Our crews have been instructed to collect all 4 corners of the catch basin, the center of the structure, and any other details on it (cut outs, slots, pipe inverts, etc). So the outside shape of the box is fine, its just that the centers connect when i don't want them to.
That actually brings up another side issue I have concerning figures - sometimes I will have figures in the drawing that I have not created a figure prefix for. I assume that C3D just creates a figure because it sees matching codes, but I am not sure why it does that without a figure prefix already established. Sometimes its great, but other times, I don't want those shots to connect and create a figure.
Personally that sounds a bit ridiculous to get that much detail, and I have done topo and engineering drawings & calculations for years, with just a label as to box size and grate and inverts with pipe size in a lable.
Best bet is to change you code for your grate center shot to something else (like GRATE) and dont supply a figure prefix for that.
As far as it drawing things with out a prefix. Most likely you field crew doesn't have a code for something they think should be a line. So they are hard coding a B (begin) to a description which starts the line and then hard coding a E or CLS to finish it.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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I realize it's not something that's a standard practice for everyone, but it's how we go about showing our survey data as accurately as possible.
You bring up a good point regarding coding. The points in question do have Begin and End or Close codes on them. After your last comment, I removed them, and that fixed my issue. Thanks!
Thanks, too, for the suggestion of a different code for the grate center shot. That may work as well.
@mathewkol wrote:
I would like the software to remember all of these edits so I can process lines at any point in the figure editing workflow.
+1
+1
Don Ireland
Engineering Design Technician
Hi,
I'm a surveyor. You've mentioned that C3D does not like resections. That is absolutely true and has been a very frustrating thing for many surveyors who want to get all their job done in one single application - in C3D.
Now, I want explain what resection is to those of you who aren't surveyors.
Resections in surveying terms means establishing coordinates of a total station by observing points with knows coordinates, or control points. All total stations have this feature of resection also called "free station". This second name of resection implies that a total station is free to set up anywhere on a surveying site as long as the control points can be observed. Thus you can choose the best location for you total station to ensure you can observe all points you need to survey.
I specialize in construction surveying. All my job is based on resection. It's very convenient - I can set up my total station almost in any part of a constuction site. First I make a resection by observing control points, thus finding my total station coordinates and azimuth. Then I'm ready for surveying or staking out construction elements. That's how it usually works. The resection itself is carried out by total station built-in software.
The algorithm I've just described works fine for almost 99% of my tasks. But sometimes tasks get harder. It usually happens in the very beginning of construction works when I have to create a surveying network. Land surveyors may have to create surveying networks even more often.
Surveying networks are built using all observations of control points and setup points of a traverse. This implies that I cannot find my total station coordinates on a single setup point in the field (which I don't actually need in fact), but I can do it later by balancing all observations in special software in the office. Why would I want to do so? The answer is accuracy. I can get more accurate results if I adjust all observations as a single system.
Can we create suveying networks with C3D? Well, technically speaking, yes, we can, but there's a serious limitation: the first setup point must be a control point with known coordinates. You can't just simply choose a 'free station' for your total station. Well, when you work in the country side, you are likely to find such a control point which you can use as a setup point. But when you work in the city, control points are usually built in building walls which means you simply cannot set your total station upon them. The only chance left is to servey control points in the field and then adjust the traverse in the office. Can C3D balance such a traverse? No, it can't, and that's the problem we're facing with C3D as surveyors. We have to use different software to balace traverses and then import results into C3D. It isn't the way C3D was supposed to be used, is it? Many surveyors would be happy if they were able to balance survey networks in C3D. Since C3D lacks this functionallity, many surveyors give up the idea of buying it, and that could be of a great concern for Autodesk.
I just know sure what the big deal is with resection, you dont do resection in C3D because C3D does not observe anything the instrument and data collector do that in the field. Once you do a resection in the data collector you have a know position that can be exported out of the data collector either by using PNEZD or FBK. I find that the biggest mistake made in the field is that once the resection point is established the survey crew just runs along doing the work. Problem is that is not a correct method (especially with FBK import) you need to then do a setup and backsight on your new (resected) point#. So that this information (i.e. coordinate value) is witten to the raw file. That's how I have done it for the better part of 18 years, with a hitch.
an C3D balance such a traverse? It most certainly can using the correct methods, and this has been part of the software since well before Civil 3D
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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Suppose you have only one control point built in a wall. You make a taverse and close to another control point like that - you cannot set your total station upon it. Can C3D calculate such a traverse?
No, it can't.
The survey module of C3D has been inherited from Land Desktop or maybe from evern earlier software and hasn't changed ever since, I believe.
When I have to balance a traverse, I use a different software, because it works just fine with raw data (unlike C3D), and I don't have to mess with resection in the field. In C3D, you have to make tedious raw file format conversions, and there's no guarantee you'll succeed. Besides that, C3D works with point numbers only, it cannot work with point names which are more descriptive.
"Suppose you have only one control point built in a wall. You make a taverse and close to another control point like that - you cannot set your total station upon it. Can C3D calculate such a traverse?"
Yes you can use the Coordinate Geometry Editor for that, the apply and of the rules. Basically your saying the wall points are know control points that have a locked positon and your trying to perform a linear adjustment.
If the geometry editor can do this with a polyline - I think the Survey data base could also do this with points but would need the know control points.
As far as point NAMES there is a post in the forums regarding that, do a search you should come up with some good hits.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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Thanks for your feedback on resection, we find it very frustrating. I guess best option there is a csv file and also export observations?
You stated "you need to then do a setup and backsight on your new (resected) point#. ".
so to get this right Can you explain this in steps, i am trying to convey this to our surveyors as we would love to just use the fbk file.
Thanks
Allan
Allan,
When your field crew set a point to be resected they then backsight a know or another point there going to be resecting, after they turn angles to the various know control points the data collector stores the resected point as a new point #, once this is completed they need to go back to the station and backsight page (set-up info) and actually set-up (instrument Point#) and backsight (assuming this number is a known) again, this in turn rights the NEZ for the STATION and BACKSIGHT along with any HI/HR information. So that when you convert a RAW file to FBK for traverse closure, the data is written in the RAW as Station/Backsight.
After I have the FBK file I generlly comment out things that I don't need, with an ! at the front of the line in the FBK file. I have also go so far as to when the crew did not do this, that I would add the information on the front end of that particular set-up (i.e. NEZ of the STN & BS) into the FBK.
Hope that helps.
Rick Jackson
Survey CAD Technician VI
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