Community
Civil 3D Forum
Welcome to Autodesk’s Civil 3D Forums. Share your knowledge, ask questions, and explore popular AutoCAD Civil 3D topics.
cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Feature Line / elevation question...

41 REPLIES 41
SOLVED
Reply
Message 1 of 42
deltacoolguy
1990 Views, 41 Replies

Feature Line / elevation question...

Feature Line / elevation question...

 

This might be more of a "wish list" question, I don't know.

 

Let's say I have two known end points with two known elevations.  I want to put a feature line between the two, but there are a couple arcs involved.  I am fine with the elevations being linear.

 

Is there a way to draw a feature line, and have it fill in the elevations in between automatically?

 

Thanks.

Windows 10-64 Pro
8GB RAM (Home)
12GB RAM (Work)
AutoCAD Civil 3D 2019
41 REPLIES 41
Message 2 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: deltacoolguy

Yes. choose transition on the command line until you get to the other end. There are lots of tools and options you may want to explore.

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 3 of 42
deltacoolguy
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

I'm finding that out piece by piece.  I just wish some thing were a little more intuitive.

 

Or, at least placed together better.

 

Thank you, btw.

Windows 10-64 Pro
8GB RAM (Home)
12GB RAM (Work)
AutoCAD Civil 3D 2019
Message 4 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: deltacoolguy

but when you go back, can you easily tell what points were designed, and what was interpolated?

No.

What you will find is civil 3D feature lines and pipe networks do not follow civil engineering design principles.

The very first thing you learn as a civil is the basics of plan layout and profile design.

It may be on a pipeline, road, or top of slope, but we all know the elevation points almost never occur at the start and ends of lines/arcs in plan.

But C3D does this because they wanted to allow users to use the regular pline grips to also edit elevations.

Minor detail, eh?

Short cut to long delay?


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 5 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: deltacoolguy

It has been said.

 

It is a new environment, you will struggle , piss and moan, and one day you'll be telling someone else where it is. Smiley Wink

 

In the meantime..... The command line says more than space bar or enter  -- READ IT! And if you have disabled the Ribbon, by gosh put it back. The context nature of it takes you where you need/ want to go.

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 6 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

not if the tools are fundamentally wrong.

The more you get to know incorrectly designed tools, the more you know the problems they cause.

 

The answer is to make one that does work.  Too bad we pay Autodesk anyway...


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 7 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: JamesMaeding

James,

 

A mathematician, a physicist and an engineer go camping:

 

While sleeping, an ember from the campfire jumps into the tent and starts a fire. The physicist takes out a slide rule and estimates how much water he would need to dose the flames, runs to the creek puts out the fire and returns to bed.

 

Another fire breaks out. The engineer guesstimates the quantity needed, gets the water, extinguishes the fire and returns to sleep.

 

A third fire breaks out! The Mathematician computes to 2/3Pi exactly how much water is needed to put out the fire....

 

He was so happy with the calculation that he went back to sleep.

 

 

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 8 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

and they continued to put out the fire all night because they negleted a basic common sense rule "don't go to sleep while your camp fire is burning."

Those basics are tough, I know.

 

don't be offended, Autodesk stands to make millions by getting this stuff corrected.


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 9 of 42
mathewkol
in reply to: deltacoolguy

Don't be discourages Deltacoolguy, some people's doom and gloom thoughts are not shared by everyone here. I use the feature lin tools very successfully in most circumstances.
Matt Kolberg
SolidCAD Professional Services
http://www.solidcad.ca /
Message 10 of 42
jmayo-EE
in reply to: JamesMaeding

"but when you go back, can you easily tell what points were designed, and what was interpolated?

No."

 

You can very easily place labels on the design values and exclude them from the interpolated values to determine what points were designed if needed.

 

Personally I have never needed to specifically know what is interpolated vs what is not. I can look at the site and know what values I want to set and what I want to interpolate. None of the local, county or state agencies that review my plans have ever asked for this either.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 11 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: jmayo-EE

I totally agree. not to mention if the values are interpolated , they represent a straight line from design pt A to design point B.

 

 

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 12 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: jmayo-EE

The facts stand for themselves.

Civil engineers define things by the combination of plan segments, and a profile.

When you approach things from a civil engineer's point of view, any tool you write handles this properly.

Carlson, Civil Image (way old tool), Trimble, ours, and many others all have done this correctly.

Their tools allow pvi's anywhere and distinguish between interpolated and designed points.

 

I discovered this from a well known contractor that models things for GPS controlled grading. Those guys do this kind of modeling all day long, and checking that their design points were right is critical.  They deal with the same issues designers do. 

 

Its only autodesk's feature line and pipe networks that do it "train without a track" way, with undesigned hinge points all over the place.

Anyone that owns C3D should still learn how to use them to the best they can, but they should understand why these odd interpolation type issue come up.  I think Autodesk will fix the problem some day, its workarounds til then though.


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 13 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: jmayo-EE

John,

In response to you saying you do not need to know what is interpolated, your own revision process will contradict that.

When you change an elevation, do you not tell the interpolated points to line up between the design points?

If not, I am very curoius to hear what kind of design you do.

Do you really have a grade breaks that always and only occur at every start and end of each plan view line/arc segment?

 

Of course you do not, and everyone does revisions, so you do need to know the design points.

How do you get around this? I'm not asking to somehow win an arguement, I want to know what process people use that makes these problems seem like nothing.

I have to advise many users, and am simply looking for best practice advice.

 


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 14 of 42
jmayo-EE
in reply to: JamesMaeding

When you change an elevation, do you not tell the interpolated points to line up between the design points?

 

Not sure with this. If I change an elevation I re-interpolate to my desired point of intrest.

 

Do you really have a grade breaks that always and only occur at every start and end of each plan view line/arc segment?

 

No I add PI's and elevation points where I want/need. I use feature lines as construction lines to force grades. For instance I can draw a feature line across a drivewat/access to form a crown, superelevate or maintain a flat pavement surface. These construction lines also help with retaining wall heights.

 

We do all private sectore work. Residential, commercial and industrial. Site plans, subdivisions, stromwwater management, flood plain mapping and more. Ironically in the last few years we have been doing a large numnber of mansions. Attached are screen caps of two projects. A single family home and a car dealer. The surfaces are defined with only feature lines.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 15 of 42
jmayo-EE
in reply to: jmayo-EE

 

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 16 of 42
jmayo-EE
in reply to: jmayo-EE

FYI the commercial site has a corridor to form a rough pavement plane.

John Mayo

EESignature

Message 17 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: jmayo-EE

Thanks John, nice images.

I wish I got to work with more people that did projects in 3D, there are so many fun things to be explored.

There definatley is a lot you can model with feature lines, and what i find is experienced people have a lot of tricks they know to survive one way or another. It was important enough to me that I wrote something that replaces the feature line altogether.  I wish Autodesk would fix theirs though.

The bigger problem is actually pipe networks, which you cannot compromise on. A pipe profile is defined by a vertical alignment, and it is critical the editing of that behaves like the editing of a road profile. But it does not.

 

 

 


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 18 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: JamesMaeding


@jmaeding wrote:

The facts stand for themselves.

Civil engineers define things by the combination of plan segments, and a profile.

When you approach things from a civil engineer's point of view, any tool you write handles this properly.

Carlson, Civil Image (way old tool), Trimble, ours, and many others all have done this correctly.

Their tools allow pvi's anywhere and distinguish between interpolated and designed points.

<snip>


Now I get it. I never understand why you bash the product so much, but now I get it.

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 19 of 42
JamesMaeding
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

all I am doing is following basic plan and profile design ideas I learned back in school.

Every software out there follows these for roads, pipes, and grading.

Its only C3D that has this odd subset of tools for pipes and 3d plines.

 

I cannot blame Autodesk for wanting to use the same grips you see on a pline for elevations.

It almost makes sense.  It falls apart though when you realize PVI's almost never line up with PI's.

They either missed it and got too far in to change, or thought "nah, they can change their industry to fit our tools"

 

I'd love to hear Autodesk comment on the history of that decision, as the guys running things are smart dudes.


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 20 of 42
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: JamesMaeding


This is where I get confused with your discussion; pipes profile from end to end, profiles compute from end to end, feature lines control grade end to end (segments) with the same basic principles that we all learned in school. Can you give an example where the tools are not following basic principles?

 

If I have a pline grip at (x1,y1) and another at (x2,y2) and so on, how does that violate any fundamental principles?

On paper I would draw the coordinates plot the line and get the same distance. What's wrong here?

 

When I profile a pipe and the manholes are 200-ft apart and the grade between them is 1% the tool tells me there is a a 2-ft drop in the pipe ... So what's wrong with the tool?

 

When I profile a horizontal alignment and have a VC in a HC the PVI ends up where it ends up. What's wrong with that (other than AASHTO doesn't recommend VC in HC).

 

If I use a feature line along a curb it does it calcs the elevation by distanc and grade between points. What is the tool doing wrong?

 

If I may guess at where your trepidation lies - it would be in the model. To rely on the model (any model) solely, for design out put, would be folly. The model, in my mind is an aid to get the design. The phrase is:  model to design, not model to build.

 

But still, I'd like to hear more of your views as to why the tools violate fundamental principles.

 

 

 

 

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS

Can't find what you're looking for? Ask the community or share your knowledge.

Post to forums  

Rail Community


Autodesk Design & Make Report