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"tailleur" <I
href="mailto:mtaylor@archerps.com">mtaylor@archerps.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f193974.7@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f193974.7@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
know its still early in the game and I also applaud autodesk for attempting
this object oriented approach, however, I think there are going to be a lot of
users who would just as soon stick with the tried and true land desktop. It
works. And as Allen says, you can easily get 90% down the path before you have
to start manually editing. If autodesk is going to improve on civil3d, they
will need to put some tools in there to allow manual drafting(ie cross section
and profile tools). I work in an urban area where you have to make the design
fit very limiting existing conditions, not in an empty field where all you
need to worry about is if the earthwork balances. And if you can get the
software to take in all the minute details needed to finish the plans it will
become too complex to run. I think they should release civil 3d as a seperate
product; two different levels of automation. Ive been in the business for
about 15 years, worked in big companies and small and am now in the government
sector, and of all the users Ive known only about 30-40% of them can run every
aspect of software(softdesk, autodesk, LDD)efficiently. Thats a big gamble on
autodesks part to risk losing half of their user
base.
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"tailleur" <I
href="mailto:mtaylor@archerps.com">mtaylor@archerps.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f193974.7@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f193974.7@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
know its still early in the game and I also applaud autodesk for attempting
this object oriented approach, however, I think there are going to be a lot of
users who would just as soon stick with the tried and true land desktop. It
works. And as Allen says, you can easily get 90% down the path before you have
to start manually editing. If autodesk is going to improve on civil3d, they
will need to put some tools in there to allow manual drafting(ie cross section
and profile tools). I work in an urban area where you have to make the design
fit very limiting existing conditions, not in an empty field where all you
need to worry about is if the earthwork balances. And if you can get the
software to take in all the minute details needed to finish the plans it will
become too complex to run. I think they should release civil 3d as a seperate
product; two different levels of automation. Ive been in the business for
about 15 years, worked in big companies and small and am now in the government
sector, and of all the users Ive known only about 30-40% of them can run every
aspect of software(softdesk, autodesk, LDD)efficiently. Thats a big gamble on
autodesks part to risk losing half of their user
base.
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"Nick_Merchant" <Alan,
href="mailto:nmerchant@unitedeng.com">nmerchant@unitedeng.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f193974.10@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f193974.10@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
I have to say, after reading all of these posts, that I agree with you and
Tailleur. I've also been in the civil development field for over 15 years in
Arizona. 4 of the 5 fastest-growing cities in America are in our state and
I've designed both subdivisions and commercial sites in all of them.
Considering that I've worked for about 7 firms since 1988 and have have
studied and applied LDD inside and out, and done virtually everything you can
do with this software, I can tell you first-hand what it's strengths and
weaknesses are. In my experience, there are no better preliminary design tools
available than what ALD has to offer. However, when it comes to drafting &
production, ALD falls way, way short. The great majority of production tasks
are still handled with either Vanilla AutoCAD functionality or 3rd-party
app's. Dispute me as others may, I can tell you HONESTLY, that regardless of
the strides Autodesk has made with object modeling, it's a very, VERY long way
from being usable on the vast majority of real-world projects, with every-day,
real-world requirements. I've been pushing grading obejects on others for
years, but the FACT is 90% of the users I know don't use them. And as awesome
as I personally think they are, I have yet to use a single grading object in
any of my final improvement plans. They lack the final output requirements of
most or all projects I've worked on. How different is C3D than grading
objects? To me, it seems like the same concpet, just applied to other areas of
design. Am I right or wrong? If it took 5+ years for Autodesk developers to
extend grading object functionality to alignments, etc., how long will it take
to iron out all the bugs and move further ahead and even more unconcieveably,
respond to age-old wish list requests? It seems to me, ignorant as I am, that
the developers at Autodesk design their software in a bubble, of-sorts, with
lots of education in programming & C++, but limited experience as
designers and engineers. I don't know, I'm just guessing here, OK? I think
Autodesk should probably consider hiring people like Robert Steltman, Laurie
Comerford, Andrew Watson, R.K. McSwain(?) or some of those other "small-time",
but obviously GIFTED programmers/engineers/designers out there making a living
designing and drafting real roads and subdivisions PLUS developing on the side
to fill in the holes, to get a better perspective of what MOST users really
need. As much as I respect their ability to develop software, I'm starting to
wonder if they really understand what the REAL every-day needs are of
engineers & designers under the stringent requirement of various
municipalities are. I know various registered engineers that can't design a
subdivision to save their P.E., but some techno-master designers that save the
a**es of their firms with their skills (Keep in mind that this is a
generalization). Just because you can develop software that visually impresses
people doesn't mean it's gonna' get the job done faster or get your project
out the door on time. I know lots and lots of people that have been waiting
over 13 years for DCA, Softdesk, LDD, ALD to develop some seemingly "simple"
tools and functionality that they REALLY needed, and they NEVER did.
Consequently, some of these people have just given up hope that they would
ever see these tools. I won't say what those needs are, because, I have
developed them myself, and despite the introduction of 2004 & C3D, my
3rd-party application is doing well (Please don't judge from the 'dinosaur' on
my website. The "good stuff" won't be available for the "pirates" to
download). I hope it doesn't seem like I have a "bad attitude", because I
really don't when it comes to AutoCAD. The "vanilla" app.'literally blows my
mind. Personally, I'd like to meet the person/people who concieved and
developed concepts like paperspace and XREFing. Their vision was so
"right-on-time" that by all rights, they should've retired by now. It's just
that I'm another one of those "users" that have been waiting a looooooong time
for some basic stuff that just never came to be. So now I see the "future of
civil applications" and I wonder, "Well what about blah, blah & blah? I
really needed that stuff along time ago..." OK. I've got it all out now. Just
another opinion, eh? Thanks
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"zuzi" <pnichols@lawco.com>Seems
wrote in message
href="news:f193974.13@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f193974.13@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
like everyone has something to add, some positive, some negative. I used a
product developed by clever programmers with restricted engineering knowledge
years ago when dos was still in fashion. through user input (and OS
improvements) the product grew to be an extremely functional easy to use
design aid which has many features i would still like to see in ldd / civil3d.
Guys the most important thing now is to get the requests in so that we,
the ultimate users of the software, can have a significant role in the
development of the product. By doing this we can influence the genius of the
programmers and software engineers at autodesk. Hopefully they will listen,
and we will end up with a product we dont have to bash for its inadequacies,
like we have been doing to ldd for years. Guys give them the wishes, and
advice or suggestions on how we would like to do things, and i am sure we will
get a really cool program.
Heres Hoping.
Peter
Mactec Engineering
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