Civil 3D Points Names and Point Numbers.

[nmessina]

I'm trying to import a GPS coordinate file where our Surveyor has used both Points Names (Alpha-Numeric) and Point Numbers. see below. I have setup a Point File Format for Pname, North, East, Elev and RAW Description, to import this comma separated point file. The problem is that Civil 3D does not want to seem to use a numeric point name as a Point Number, instead the number is used as a Point name and Civil 3D assigns a Point number from the next availible point number. Is it possible to automatically, when the Point Name is a numer only to also assign it the same value as the Point Names?

I would really want Civil 3D to allow users to use Both, Point Names without assigning a Point number.


CP73,621590.855,846017.619,13.87,10
CP499,620699.227,845545.947,14.21,10
7738,621525.744,846624.727,15.1,10
CHK7737,621860.59,845594.224,14.611,10
8530,621051.442,844635.981,7.39,93
8531,621055.237,844586.744,7.068,93
8532,621054.167,844531.929,6.929

[Sinc]

We decided that Point Names are basically unusable in C3D, because of the way a Point Number must also be assigned. It just creates too many issues. So we just flat-out decided to not use Point Names, ever. It is by far the easiest solution.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[nmessina]

Thats the same conclusion we came to years ago with Land Desktop 2006, I was hoping there was an improvement with Civil 3D 2009/2010. I really don't understand why they can't just build into the program the ability to use Point Names and in such a was as it will check to see if a point name is a valid integer, then assign a point number to be equal to the Point Name. Infact, why do they even need to assign a Point Number? Civil 3D should be able to operated with mixed Point Numbers and Names.

[Sinc]

Yeah, it's a problem in the underlying data model used to create C3D. They never should have used Point Number as the primary index for that database table.

But I can't see it being fixed now. There's too much stuff built on the current design.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Anonymous]

Hi Nicholas,

I'm completely lacking in understanding on this issue, but bearing in
mind that a point must have a unique identifier, what can you do with a
Point Name that you can't do with a Point Number and Description?


Regards,


Laurie Comerford


Nicholas Messina wrote:
> Thats the same conclusion we came to years ago with Land Desktop 2006, I
> was hoping there was an improvement with Civil 3D 2009/2010. I really
> don't understand why they can't just build into the program the ability
> to use Point Names and in such a was as it will check to see if a point
> name is a valid integer, then assign a point number to be equal to the
> Point Name. Infact, why do they even need to assign a Point Number?
> Civil 3D should be able to operated with mixed Point Numbers and Names.

[Sinc]

Strictly speaking, there's nothing that absolutely requires Point Names. That's why we just made it a policy to never use Point Names, and we get by just fine.

However, many other pieces of software, as well as most data collectors, allow Point Names instead of Numbers. So you can run into problems when using data from other systems or software. To avoid issues, the rule about avoiding Point Names must be universal, even for people who are not directly using C3D, and even though their other software handles Point Names just fine.

It's typically possible to work with Point Names in C3D, it's just a hassle, because of the way C3D automatically assigns Point Numbers as well. So as the easiest solution, we just avoid Point Names. It makes things much simpler. And with C3D, where so many things are so complicated, we take "simpler" wherever we can get it.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[Bennos1]

Hi Nicholas,

We strike this alot because when we stake out points we have our leica instruments set to add "sk" to the point number i.e if we're staking out pt 400, a record is stored as sk400 in the leica data file. For what it's worth my work around (due to the point name issue) is - Open the csv file in excel, right of the raw description column create new pt numbers ( e.g. 1 in the top cell, 2 in the cell below, highlight both, grab the grip and drag down to the end of your data thus creating consective numbers). save as and give another name so you can tell this file is amended from the original file. Create a point file format of Name,N,E,RAWDESC,PT No. Import the points. Create a label to use the name if needed.


Regards,
Ben

[nmessina]

Laurie,

The ability to use true Point Naming would be an invaluable benefit to Professionals Surveyors as myself whom sometimes have to manage large surveying jobs. Many of these big jobs we may have 2 or more field crews our data collecting at the same time, collecting as many as 20-30 thousand point numbers. If we had the ability to smoothly handling point names we could assign each field crew with a letter designation. Crew A can collect points A1000+, crew B1000+; this would be a much better way of than assigning Crew A with 10,000+ and crew B with 20,000.

Another big benefit would be for project management when working on a Construction site. We can calculate a Sanitary Clean out with point name of 101, then after the stack out point 101 they turn an angle and distance and re-measure as point name AS101 (As-Staked). Later they can re-measure that point as AB101 (As-Built). That will avoid having to set aside and remember that your stake out points are from 100-999, and that as-staked points are 1,000-1,999 and finally as-builts point are 2,000-2,999.

Also as mentioned before most data collectors do allow the use of Alpha-Numeric point names, its Civil 3D that does not hand it very well. The software should be able to have a unique Point Names such as AB101 the need to assign it a point number.

[Anonymous]

From the very beginning (R2.1G & DCA) through Softdesk and now C3d, this has NEVER been a good survey oriented system. It was designed by engineers for engineers, and sorta tolerated surveyors as a necessarry evil to get engineering work done.

When I was still doing survey crew work at my last job, we did all survey work with C&G and all design work with SDSK & ACAD. Even with Ldd, we still did survey stuff with survey software, and then imported / exported points via ASCII files for field work.

Just the way it is.

OMC

[nmessina]

Autodesk, always seems to surveyors minds thinking of how we can "work around" software which was clearly designed by engineers, for engineers.

[nmessina]

WOW, two surveyors make the same comment "It was designed by engineers for engineers" within seconds of each other. Autodesk, are you listening to Surveyors?, While I heard they have at least one Licensed Surveyor on the product development team, but he must serverely be out numbered engineers.

[Sinc]

I can see how some of that would be useful. We're a small company, but even for us, we've had to do some "fancy dancing" on some projects in order to keep multiple crews synchronized. It gets worse as projects get larger.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[jefflambert9091]

I thought about experimenting with them exclusively for building layout so we can use the column naming for the point. This would make it easier on the crews for staking. We use separate collector job files for the building layout. (Trimble Survey Controller & C3D 2009 or 2010). Is it worth giving it a go or should I not waist the time? I remember an old post from someone who defended the point names. Wonder how it turned out for him?

[nmessina]

Point naming such as "A12" for the intersection of Grid Line A and Grid Line 12 would be a very good and ideal method for staking our building gridlines. The only why I can see it all working is if you completely switch to Point Names and you never use a Point Number. This is because when you enter a point by Point Name it will automatically give you the next availble point number or you can have it sequence from a specific point number. This to me would be more of a problem, having both a number and a name assigned to any one specific point.

[Anonymous]

Standing up and applauding for this whole
thread!!

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[Anonymous]

Hi Nicholas,


Thanks for the heads up.

I'm not sure I'm totally convinced. I see an administrative advantage
rather than a technical one.

In the multi-crew case, you are assigning the crews to use a unique
character as part of the Point name code in lieu of Point number range.

Alternatively you could tell them to use the unique character as part of
their point description and rely of the software to auto assign new
point numbers to duplicate point numbers.

On the project management again you could use point descriptions,
effectively ignoring the point numbers.

A difficulty I see in a system based on Point names (and indexed on
Point names) is ow the software would handle dealing with large numbers
of duplicated Point names. Let's say I have Points A1 to A10000 and 1A
to 10000B and my new survey comes in with Points A1 to A5000 and Points
1B to 5000B.

If indexing of points was based on Point Names rather than Numbers, what
generalised method could be used to rename the new points. Most of
Civil 3D functionality (Windows in its own way) adds:

(Next available number)

to the description.

Would that be acceptable?



Regards,


Laurie Comerford


Nicholas Messina wrote:
> Laurie, The ability to use true Point Naming would be an invaluable
> benefit to Professionals Surveyors as myself whom sometimes have to
> manage large surveying jobs. Many of these big jobs we may have 2 or
> more field crews our data collecting at the same time, collecting as
> many as 20-30 thousand point numbers. If we had the ability to smoothly
> handling point names we could assign each field crew with a letter
> designation. Crew A can collect points A1000+, crew B1000+; this would
> be a much better way of than assigning Crew A with 10,000+ and crew B
> with 20,000. Another big benefit would be for project management when
> working on a Construction site. We can calculate a Sanitary Clean out
> with point name of 101, then after the stack out point 101 they turn an
> angle and distance and re-measure as point name AS101 (As-Staked). Later
> they can re-measure that point as AB101 (As-Built). That will avoid
> having to set aside and remember that your stake out points are from
> 100-999, and that as-staked points are 1,000-1,999 and finally as-builts
> point are 2,000-2,999. Also as mentioned before most data collectors do
> allow the use of Alpha-Numeric point names, its Civil 3D that does not
> hand it very well. The software should be able to have a unique Point
> Names such as AB101 the need to assign it a point number.

[sboon]

We've been using point names exclusively for about two years now. When the point files come in from the field we use Excel to edit them so that the Point ID looks like this:

XXyymmdd_(field point #)

XX is the Party Chief's initials, followed by the date and then the point number from the data collector. It makes things really simple for the office. We can see multiple shots to the same control point and tell who did what on which date. I can build a point group that filters all of the points by one crew, all points on a specific date or some variation. If I need to check a point against the field notes, then I know exactly what book, date, and point number to search for.

The only problem is getting the field crews to start using this system directly on their data collectors so that we don't have to edit the files as they come in. I know that they can use these point names but they aren't used to it yet. Edited by: SBoon on Jun 17, 2009 2:23 PM

[nmessina]

Interesting Process, however our field crews would lose there jobs if all they had back from the field was coordinates for us to download. We only record RAW data files that records Right-Angles turned, Vertical-Angles and Slope Distance. When they are collecting coordinates it almost impossible to trouble shoot, plus that coordinate data file would not stand up in court to well.

[nmessina]

Interesting Process, however our field crews would lose there jobs if all they had back from the field was coordinates for us to download. We only record RAW data files that records Right-Angles turned, Vertical-Angles and Slope Distance. When they are collecting coordinates it almost impossible to trouble shoot, plus that coordinate data file would not stand up in court to well.

[Anonymous]

I second that. We only use the crews raw data as well. If the crew performs any type of rotation, transformation, or edits points, their coordinate file will reflect those changes whereas the rawfile will just note it. I find more often than not, when a crew rotates their control, they often only rotate part of it.
Point names would be handy though, our GPS records points in alpha-numeric and it buggers up the program immediately when trying to import them.
-Mark P.