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Civil 3D grading for solar PV site and golf course and maximum slope??

21 REPLIES 21
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Message 1 of 22
derek
4103 Views, 21 Replies

Civil 3D grading for solar PV site and golf course and maximum slope??

Hello,

 

Anyone have ideas on how to use Civil 3D to create a grading plan for a solar PV site or a golf course?

 

Here is the situation.  We have a large 100 acre site that is not flat.  We want to do minimal grading to "smooth out the surface".  So that maximum slope on the site is 10%.  The site does not have to be graded completely flat.  We are trying to work with the existing contours and terrain as much as possible.

 

Is there some functiion or some way for Civil 3D to "smooth out a surface"?  We want to work with the existing slopes and contours of the site and just need a grading plan that will smooth out mounds, holes, or high slope areas.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

21 REPLIES 21
Message 2 of 22
troma
in reply to: derek

The problem is: what constitutes a mound or a hole, or too steep?  And if you get rid of said topography, what are you putting there instead?  It is all very subjective.  So I would say no, this cannot be automated.

 

However, there are definitely some tools to speed up your work.  I believe a slope analysis on your surface can be used to highlight any slope above 10% for example.  For holes and mounds you can put a feature line to surface elevations around the border of where you want to grade, and then build a small surface from that.

 


Mark Green

Working on Civil 3D in Canada

Message 3 of 22
scottie.wilson
in reply to: derek

I'm dealing with the same issue. I have a very large site to grade. I need to essentially smooth it. Just seems like everything i try is not very productive especially trying to fine tune my contours "on-the-fly" to minimize FILL areas (there are lots of deep drains across the site). Someone suggested only dealing with the areas that exceed slope, but really that would just lead to creating many refinement surfaces all over the site, some that i would probably find out later that need to be combined.

 

I'm using polyline contours (very rough) to define my final grade surface at the moment so that i can move the vertices and recalc the cut/fill as fast as possible...trying to "push" the contours into the drains without exceeding a certain slope percentage....this takes some time.

I have also on previous jobs used another method to smooth the large surfaces by drawing Feature lines "down slope" following the ridges and valleys...essentially left to right would be a series of features lines (like this: |||||||  ) but following the natural ground flow. I could then add to surface, then mess with the feature line elevations. You end up with contours that are not really smooth because they hit the feature line and immediatly go toward the next feature line.

 

I too would like a tool that you could clip a portion of a surface and tell it to smooth that surface based upon some simple parameters like--> Not exceed 10% slope.

 

A felow designer told me that a program called Trimble Paydirt could perform these task much faster, but after inspecting the website i'm not sure that is the case.Now i wonder if there are other pieces of software that could perform this function, then we could refine the surface in civil 3D??

 

My sites keep getting more Extreme every month, and i'm looking for shortcuts everywhere. If anyone has ideas to improve my workflow,please reply...Thanks in Advance.

 

Scottie

Civil 3d 2012, 64 bit

Message 4 of 22
Neilw_05
in reply to: derek

My thought is to use a grid of points for the FG. Drape them all on the EG to start. Apply a slope analysis to highlight the areas that exceed the maximum desired slope and start rasing and lowering batches of points incrementally until the slopes are in tolerance. A programmer might come up with a routine that would apply an alogrythm to vary the elevations in a parabolic manner from the centroid of the selection set.

 

Of course it's not automatic but I think it is more flexible and "warpy" than featurelines.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 5 of 22
SteveMazza4062
in reply to: derek

I have worked on a couple of sites like that.  I haven't really found any supertool in Civil 3D that can do what you want it to do.  It would be nice, but ... I tell myself at times like this that if the job was all that fun, they wouldn't pay me to do it.

 

What I have found works well (enough) is to draw a grid of feature lines across the entire surface.  Then conform each one to the existing grade.  You may have to experiment with grid spacing to find out what works.  You may get luck and fix a bunch of steep areas just by the luck of sampling and interpolation.  On the other hand, you may end up showing grading in areas that you don't really need to grade.  You can deal with that by clipping the surface with a boundary at the end. Also in regard to spacing, you can always add feature lines later, or add them in tricky sections.

 

Anyway, build your FG surface from the feature lines, then apply a slope analysis style to it so you can see what parts are too steep.  Start at the highest elevation and pick a feature line.  Open the Elevation Editor, then work your way down the feature line, editing elevations by slope as you go.  Bear in mind that the slope of your grid will be the resultant of the forward slope and the cross slope ... so you will probably have to do this 2 or 3 times in sections with steep cross slopes.  Then move to the next feature line and repeat until you get the entire surface smoothed out.

 

Then you need to check the edges of your surface and, if you ended up above existing grade, then draw a feature line at the boundary and grade it to existing.

 

After you have your entire FG surface finished, if it looks too angular for you, run the Smooth Surface tool at the end.  Beware that it can give you messy edges which you will need to clean up.

 

...

 

Also, if you have a tricky EG surface with a lot of irregular features, you may want to go away from the grid of feature lines a little and instead draw feature lines along the key points of the surface.  If the surveyor created breaklines (which they should have, unless you got raw LiDAR or something), that may get you halfway there.  Just add feature lines at the local ridges and valleys.  That way, the modified surface you create will give you more "leverage" to fix those oddball elevations.

 

If you have lots of potholes, etc. in your EG surface, you may want to use the Edit tool "Smooth Surface" before you grab the EG elevations for your feature lines.  the smoothing may fix a lot of the problems right at the start.  The tool is not well documented, but it can give some nice results.

 

 

...

 

Has anyone come up with any improvements to the workflow that go beyond what I have laid out here?

Message 6 of 22
fcernst
in reply to: SteveMazza4062

Yes, I'm envisioning making one pass over this property with my linear regressional virtual  "Lawnmower Assembly". 

 

It looks like one of those wide swath lawn mowing setups they pull behind a big large green John Deere tractor with the big dually wheels on the rear.

 

It would consist of little lawn mowers that are individually as wide whatever smoothing width that is deemed acceptable to mitigate undesirable pot holes and mounds. 

 

Maybe this farmer wants to fill any potholes that are less than 30' wide, and mow down any molehills that are less than 30' wide. So the little individual regressional lawnmowers would be 30' wide.

 

In the larger than 30' potholes, the overall wide lawnmower apparatus would bend down and conform in a linear regressive manner creating an inverted type of shape across the depression, leaving gentle Fills. Over the larger than 30' molehills, the overall lawnmower apparatus would climb up, crawl and bend over them in a convex type of shape, giving them a little shave also as it passes.

 

I'd build this apparatus in my SAC factory.

 

 

 

 



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 7 of 22
Neilw_05
in reply to: fcernst

This sounds like a great approach Fred. I'm wondering how you'd do it one pass though. How would the "gang of mowers" be able grade in the ahead direction as they move across the ground? Wouldn't you need to run a pass in 2 directions?

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 8 of 22
fcernst
in reply to: Neilw_05

How would the "gang of mowers" be able grade in the ahead direction as they move across the ground?

 


It's just a typical Corridor surface. If I get tired though building it in the garage, maybe I could make a narrower overall mower, and farm it in a typical farmer's field pattern. 



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 9 of 22
Neilw_05
in reply to: fcernst

Maybe I don't understand your approach.

 

I'm thinking you'd create a baseline for the mower and sample the EG. Then you'd design a profile to fit the EG closely but with the maximum 10% grades. So the mower would follow the baseline and profile and the gangs would shape the ground laterally, each mower following the EG at it's reference point.

 

If I understand this correctly then how would the individual mowers know if the EG is falling or rising excessively in the ahead direction?

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 10 of 22
fcernst
in reply to: Neilw_05

They don't, they are just Milling and Leveling along, minding their own business. They only know what EG is doing at each section.

 

What frequency interval do you want to do?



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 11 of 22
Neilw_05
in reply to: fcernst

After thinking about it a bit more I see how it wouldn't matter. The lateral constraints on the mowers would take care of the FG in all directions.

 

Clever idea.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 12 of 22
Mark_Castle
in reply to: fcernst

Are there any tools in Infrastructure Modeler that might help with the initial smoothing before finishing it off in Civil 3D?

Mark Castle
Win 10 64-Bit, Thinkpad P50
16 GB RAM; Core i7-6820HQ; Quadro M1000M
Message 13 of 22
fcernst
in reply to: Mark_Castle

I don't know i've never used it. For my reference, can you tell me which discussion group tallks about that software most?



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 14 of 22
Mark_Castle
in reply to: fcernst

Maybe this one

 

I have not explored Infrastructure Modeler much, but I got the impression that it might be better suited to something where you're not trying to detail out to the fourth decimal point, but I don't really know.

Mark Castle
Win 10 64-Bit, Thinkpad P50
16 GB RAM; Core i7-6820HQ; Quadro M1000M
Message 15 of 22
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: derek

I'm no golf course architect but I did stay at a holiday inn express,.

 

Most of the GC I have been on  aren't exactly smooth. Well they are smooth in as much as they were carved up but loaded with hills and dales. I would find it rather boring to play on a course that was mass graded like a subdivision, but that's me.

 

The question smooth out leaves much to the imagination. Over what limits? Is there a pre determined swath? One thing I would want to know before I started digging into the tool box is what is the desired shape? Where do I want the water ...err game to play easy, hard or neutral.

 

It almost sounds like you would like to take a sanding block to the TIN and rub it into a shape you find appealing - one you don't know until you see it.

 

I might look for some limits in an area, shape some FL, run some gradings connect them up, infill get some volume  adjust, and keep having fun shaving the TIN.

 

I would start BIG on the concept and small on the details and refine refine refine, until I found the shape I like.

 

Whats a Solar PV site?

 

Oh yea. Might even motivate me into looking at some of those "Strpping Assemblies"  I see in the tool palette. Stripping sounds like shaving a little off the top. no?

 

Good luck

Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 16 of 22
neilyj666
in reply to: derek

solar photo voltaic perhaps i. e. a solar energy farm

neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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AEC Collection 2024 UKIE (mainly Civil 3D UKIE and IW)
Win 11 Pro x64, 1Tb Primary SSD, 1Tb Secondary SSD
64Gb RAM Intel(R) Xeon(R) W-11855M CPU @ 3.2GHz
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Message 17 of 22
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: neilyj666

Thats gotta look great on the back nine
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 18 of 22
Joe-Bouza
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

I bet a wide Mill&OverLay sub could do an interesting job
Thank you

Joseph D. Bouza, P.E. (one of 'THOSE' People)

HP Z210 Workstation
Intel Xeon CPU E31240 @ 3.30 Hz
12 GB Ram


Note: Its all Resistentialism, so keep calm and carry on

64 Bit Win10 OS
Message 19 of 22
fcernst
in reply to: Joe-Bouza

I bet a wide Mill&OverLay sub could do an interesting job..

 


No, that would just make the site one cross slope. You need multiple reel mowers like this:

 

 

Capture2.JPG

 

 

Capture2.JPG



Fred Ernst, PE
C3D 2024
Ernst Engineering
www.ernstengineering.com
Message 20 of 22
Neilw_05
in reply to: fcernst

On Fred's mower gang there would be a bar on each mower that prevents it from tipping laterally more than some maximum slope (i.e. 10% in this case) and also a bar between each mower that does the same. Then when it crosses terrain that it doesn't fit it fills the gaps or cuts the humps.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com

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