Carlson and Civil 3D

[Hokiedaddy]

Everyone, our survey group is considering going to Carlson software. I am not very familiar with it and want to know how it interacts with the Civil 3D 2011 software our engineers use. I kind of hesitate to support getting yet another brand in here (we have a transportation division using Microstation already too) since we don't have any problems right now. Can anyone shed a little light on the situation? Thanks

[AllenJessup]

I don't have any direct experience with that. I've heard good things about Carlson. But, as you said, why bring in another brand of software. I don't know about MS but if people are having problems with Survey in Civil 3D. There are front ends and add-ons that make it simpler.

Allen

[Hokiedaddy]

The weird thing is that our survey group in our main office uses Civil 3D without many problems. The transaction from them to us is pretty seamless. It is one of our remote offices that wants to go to Carlson and I don't know what file types it produces and how difficult it is to translate into Civil 3D.

[rl_jackson]

Most of the linework will display, but it will be pretty dumb (i.e. No Civil Objects). The engineering department will need to recreate any surface for use with design, and when you go to stakeout; they'll have to dumb it down for carlson.

[AllenJessup]

I found this link http://advsurveying.com/blog/?p=195. It makes it look like you can LandXML points and surfaces from Carlson to Civil. But again. Why?

What I usually find in these situations is that there is one person or a few who knew the software and convince others that that's the way to go. While I've said that Carlson is a good Surveying program. It doesn't make sense in your case. If someone was running a Survey only bushiness I'd think it was a better idea.

Allen

[c.bergthold]

Our surveying department uses the C&G portion of Carlson for point calculations. Carlson can be installed as an add on to Civil 3D and depends on what type of operations you plan to use it for as to how it will affect Civil 3D compatibility.

[rkmcswain]

At my previous firm, the survey group uses Carlson and the production group uses Civil 3D. Having said that, Carlson was more or less relegated to survey drafting duty because they did things like downloading, conversions, and a lot of calcs in other software (i.e. Topcon/etc.) 

We did file transfer using DWG files and ASCII or LandXML. Carlson does not use any custom entities, so there are no issues with Carlson->C3D drawings.  I'm also fairly certain that Carlson can natively work with AECC_POINTS.

[Hokiedaddy]

So what exactly are the steps that need to be taken to transfer a Carlson drawing into CAD? Can you export out something from Carlson that can be imported directly into Autocad or do you need to install an add-on in CAD? Thanks

[c.bergthold]

Carlson is an add on to AutoCAD or can also be installed with InteliCAD?. If installed on AutoCAD there is no conversion.

[907Trekker]

Intellicad can save as a DWG that is compatable with AutoCAD, so you can just open it with like a normal drawing.  But the difference, as others have said, is that there are no smart objects.  We also use Landxml to transer things like surfaces, alignments, etc. that were created in Carlson (Carlson exports it, C3D imports). 

There is also an addon that you can get to import Carlson points into AutoCAD.  It is available on Carlson's web page.

I would tell them to stick with C3D.

[Neilw_05]

We don't use Carlson but whether you can/should depends a lot on how you intend to manage your projects. I think there is merit in considering it for several reasons such as reduced cost for software, hardware, maintenance, interoperability, ease of use, etc.

If all you need from the survey dept. for your engineering needs is a surface model then it should be manageable via LandXML. Since the existing terrain is typically static you won't need to create a dynamic surface in C3D. Any survey drawings can be referenced into your project drawing just as any other "dumb" DWG file. If there is a need to update the survey surface in C3D all you would have to do is re-export to the same LandXML file and C3D will update the surface from the new version. You would not have to delete and recreate it. All your dependent data would remain synhronized.

Some cases where you might need/want to have your survey data in C3D objects:

Tying grading into property lines

Surveyed alignments

Annotating surveyed features inyour plan sets.

I'm sure others can add to the list.

[laddnelson]

---

@907Trekker wrote:

But the difference, as others have said, is that there are no smart objects.

---

I'll defer to the intent of the statement (e.g. "smart objects") but Carlson Software does offer "smart" or "intelligent" behavior without the need for custom ARX objects.

Just as Civil 3D (or C3D object enablers) are required for C3D objects in a DWG to be "smart," a Carlson Software environment would be needed for the similar smart behavior of Carlson-generated entities. While not exhaustive, the following are examples of the intelligence users can assign to standard AutoCAD entities produced with Carlson:

• Points in a DWG linked to an external coordinate file - changes in one update the other.
• Points linked to linework - move a point and the linework linked to the point updates.
• Labels linked to linework - change a line and the labels update to reflect the change(s).
• Profiles linked to surface models - update a surface model and profiles based on the surface model can be refreshed
• Sewers linked to centerlines and surface models - changes to an alignment or surface model can trigger updates to the sewer network
• Sheets linked to profiles/sections - updates to profiles or cross-sections can trigger updates to sheets
• etc

One of the key benefits of producing native AutoCAD entity types is that Carlson-produced drawings are highly portable and backward compatible.

--
Ladd Nelson

[TerryDotson]

One of the key benefits of producing native AutoCAD entity types is that Carlson-produced drawings are highly portable and backward compatible.

Well put.  Consider as an example when AutoCAD 2008 64bit became available there were no object enablers since Civil3D was 32bit only.  Putting it simply, AutoCAD 2008 64bit couldn't use a Civil3D drawing at all (and that's in the family).  And why would an inside AutoCAD application need an Export to AutoCAD command?

The lack of custom objects does not make an application less capable.

[Sinc]

I think Ladd and Terry have valid points.  But being a C3D "expert" (I think), I find that there are incredible advantages to having survey in C3D, if you are also doing engineering in C3D.

But C3D is relatively flexible on what it can use as "source data", and it also has lots of brain-dead stuff.  And the C3D learning curve is pretty steep, since C3D is nowhere near as user-frilendly as Carlson.  But at the same time, Carlson feels like going back to "old-school", which is good if you think R14/Softdesk is cool.  Don't get me wrong...  Carlson is far more advanced than R14/Softdesk, as far as capabilities, but it isn't as "neat" as C3D.  And I tend to view C3D's extensibility as a big plus over Carlson...  If you want something custom with Carlson, you have to convince them to provide it.  With C3D, you can do it yourself (or find a 3rd-Party provider who has alread created what you want).  Carlson is nowhere near as extensible as C3D, regardless of what it provides OOTB.

There are some shops that probably SHOULD go with Carlson.  Especially since Autodesk doesn't understand Survey at all, while Carlson does.  So if you go with C3D for Survey, you're basically riding the immense capabilities of C3D, while working around Autodesk's complete misunderstandings of Survey.  It's actually possible to do that very effectively, even though it can also be very frustrating, wondering why Autodesk doesn't "get it".  We've been running circles around a lot of the local firms in our area, even those running Carlson, but we had to work at learning C3D.  It didn't come easy.