Call for Cul-de-sac Examples

[Anonymous]

In Civil 3D, we would like to expand our solution base for Cul-De-Sac
creation, as well as improve useability. We hope to get are some particular
common (and not-so-common) configurations for Cul-de-sacs, in regards to the
horizontal alignment, offsets and, additionally, 3D design details to help
automate the process.

Preferred examples would be contained in DWF or DWG files. Also, any
available agency standards and examples would be useful as well. We seek
this input to continue improving Autodesk Civil 3D.

If you can help, please respond/send examples directly to me at the
following email address:

mike.rogerson - Add "autodesk.com" at the end of that. If you reply
directly to me from this post, make sure to remove the SPAM protection from
my reply address.

Thanks for any help!

Mike

Autodesk, Inc.
Michael C. Rogerson, PE
Product Designer - Program Manager
ISD Civil Engineering Software Development

[Anonymous]

Hi Fred:

Out of curiousity, how do you show and label a left or right FL vertical
curve around a horizontal curve on the CL profile? Would it not be
distorted in relation to the CL? Do you show the distorted view and just
label grades of small segments of the vertical curve?

Drew Burgasser
CAD Masters, Inc.


"Fred Ernst" wrote in message
news:C2A610F5BD288ACDA6584C3008C5593E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Hi Michael:

We actually need the ability to design the transitions (gutter flowline
usually) as "independent" alignments and profiles, but they need to have an
intelligent cross slope relationship with CL. We need a flag or a display
where we can see the cross slope left and right of crown at each CL station.

Now, people are designing all three profiles, and "hand checking" the crown
cross slopes, which is very tedious and eats profit margins.

Fred
"Michael Rogerson" wrote in message
news:4912A6E0F243A93A15AD41F7EB7A6326@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Howdy Gene,
Thanks, understand - a common need seems to be the ability to first plot,
then annotate parallel and non-parallel offsets on the CL profile (or onto
any profile for that matter).

The annotation of the non-parallel entities as superimposed on the CL
profile needs a few things:

1) Label true grades along the offset (not the grades as the appear in the
CL profile)

2) The abiliy to label stations along the offset (not the CL stations) on
the CL profile. These stations distances would be non-linear in the case
where an offset was non-parallel, curved or bent.

From you comments, I'm assuming that for design development, you would
likely work with profiles for the offsets as well as the centerline. But,
for review and construction drawings, these would often all be represented
on the CL profile?

let me know if I'm not clear here, or off-base. Thanks.
Mike

"gredmon" wrote in message
news:f19b375.15@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Mike,
Our situation is similar to Fred's further down in this thread. We are
required to show all 3 profiles. Left curb, CL and Right curb. They all must
be fully annotated with actual lengths shown where curbs are not parallel
with CL.
Our CL profile actually always continues to the top of curb in the middle of
the the large radius (back of cul-de-sac) where all the profiles end at an
identical point.
This method provides us the opportunity to control all the warping in the
cul-de-sac with individual profiles and provide curb staking onsite.
Hope this helps.
Gene

[Anonymous]

Gene, Fred, Drew - Good stuff.

As Drew pointed out, the offsets will most
often be "skewed" when represented on the centerline profile, as the true
length along the offsets is not the same as the lengths represented on the CL
profile.

So, I can say this - that things like vertical
curves may need to be represented as a series of chord segements (the
resolution of which should be user-controlled).  Labeling offsets should be
able to reference cardinal points (like grade breaks on the offset, as well as
offset VC start/end HP/LP, etc.)

Fred - the notion of labelling the true grade from
CL to offset is quite understood, especially when you mention profit
margins! - only one assumption to clarify - you would want the grade
measured perpedicular from the CL out to the offset?  Of course, if all of
this were creating a surface, the normal to the surface from a point on the CL
might be of more interest.

Gene - the question that comes to mind from your
repsonse is if you expect to be able to edit the "skewed"
representation of the offset profile when it's shown on the CL profile. 
This leads to all sorts of other things like how you would exepect it to behave,
etc.  Hence my question - I was assuming that you were working on the
Offset profiles independantly, while only showing the representation of them on
the CL profile (not editing then there).  Thoughts?

thanks again!

Mike

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"gredmon" <
href="mailto:gredmon@hunsaker.com">gredmon@hunsaker.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f19b375.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f19b375.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

I
know this is no easy task, but its what we have to do.

As far as the 3 lines of the profile. You mention design development and
construction drawings. Right now there is no difference. We use a custom app
built on LDT to design all 3 lines of the profile simultaniously (each line
gets its own horiz. alignment) then produce a single profile that shows all 3
lines separated vertically by a 100 grid. This profile gets externally
referenced into our construction drawings for plots that are used for plan
check and construction staking.

If I understand what your suggesting is that 3 different profiles could be
used to develop the design and then brought together as a representation on a
single (CL) profile for construction drawings should work. In theory...

Let me know if I miss understood.
Gene

[Anonymous]

We have to show three separate profiles now on one plan\profile sheet.
Fred

"Drew Burgasser" wrote in message
news:AA6C5F73EAED9C82C871AA60A64895E9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Hi Fred:
>
> Out of curiousity, how do you show and label a left or right FL vertical
> curve around a horizontal curve on the CL profile? Would it not be
> distorted in relation to the CL? Do you show the distorted view and just
> label grades of small segments of the vertical curve?
>
> Drew Burgasser
> CAD Masters, Inc.
>
>
> "Fred Ernst" wrote in message
> news:C2A610F5BD288ACDA6584C3008C5593E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Hi Michael:
>
> We actually need the ability to design the transitions (gutter flowline
> usually) as "independent" alignments and profiles, but they need to have
an
> intelligent cross slope relationship with CL. We need a flag or a display
> where we can see the cross slope left and right of crown at each CL
station.
>
> Now, people are designing all three profiles, and "hand checking" the
crown
> cross slopes, which is very tedious and eats profit margins.
>
> Fred
> "Michael Rogerson" wrote in
message
> news:4912A6E0F243A93A15AD41F7EB7A6326@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Howdy Gene,
> Thanks, understand - a common need seems to be the ability to first plot,
> then annotate parallel and non-parallel offsets on the CL profile (or onto
> any profile for that matter).
>
> The annotation of the non-parallel entities as superimposed on the CL
> profile needs a few things:
>
> 1) Label true grades along the offset (not the grades as the appear in the
> CL profile)
>
> 2) The abiliy to label stations along the offset (not the CL stations) on
> the CL profile. These stations distances would be non-linear in the case
> where an offset was non-parallel, curved or bent.
>
> From you comments, I'm assuming that for design development, you would
> likely work with profiles for the offsets as well as the centerline. But,
> for review and construction drawings, these would often all be represented
> on the CL profile?
>
> let me know if I'm not clear here, or off-base. Thanks.
> Mike
>
> "gredmon" wrote in message
> news:f19b375.15@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Mike,
> Our situation is similar to Fred's further down in this thread. We are
> required to show all 3 profiles. Left curb, CL and Right curb. They all
must
> be fully annotated with actual lengths shown where curbs are not parallel
> with CL.
> Our CL profile actually always continues to the top of curb in the middle
of
> the the large radius (back of cul-de-sac) where all the profiles end at an
> identical point.
> This method provides us the opportunity to control all the warping in the
> cul-de-sac with individual profiles and provide curb staking onsite.
> Hope this helps.
> Gene
>
>

[Anonymous]

The normal sounds good as you mention it.

All this being said, trying to design a
road from conception using three profiles is pure insanity. The more
sane approach is to use traditional CL template design techniques for the
initial design, and then go back and tweak the flowlines to fix flat
stretches, get inlets situated, etc. Then be able to show the
flowline cardinal (like that word) information on one CL
profile.

Fred

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Michael Rogerson" <
href="mailto:michael.rogersonSPAM_NOT@autodesk.com">michael.rogersonSPAM_NOT@autodesk.com>
wrote in message
href="news:A203A3CDA3A5486F98C3962431FFAB71@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:A203A3CDA3A5486F98C3962431F......

Gene, Fred, Drew - Good stuff.

As Drew pointed out, the offsets will most
often be "skewed" when represented on the centerline profile, as the true
length along the offsets is not the same as the lengths represented on the CL
profile.

So, I can say this - that things like vertical
curves may need to be represented as a series of chord segements (the
resolution of which should be user-controlled).  Labeling offsets should
be able to reference cardinal points (like grade breaks on the offset, as well
as offset VC start/end HP/LP, etc.)

Fred - the notion of labelling the true grade
from CL to offset is quite understood, especially when you mention profit
margins! - only one assumption to clarify - you would want the grade
measured perpedicular from the CL out to the offset?  Of course, if all
of this were creating a surface, the normal to the surface from a point on the
CL might be of more interest.

Gene - the question that comes to mind from your
repsonse is if you expect to be able to edit the "skewed"
representation of the offset profile when it's shown on the CL profile. 
This leads to all sorts of other things like how you would exepect it to
behave, etc.  Hence my question - I was assuming that you were working on
the Offset profiles independantly, while only showing the representation of
them on the CL profile (not editing then there).  Thoughts?

thanks again!

Mike

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"gredmon" <
href="mailto:gredmon@hunsaker.com">gredmon@hunsaker.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f19b375.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f19b375.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

I
know this is no easy task, but its what we have to do.

As far as the 3 lines of the profile. You mention design development and
construction drawings. Right now there is no difference. We use a custom app
built on LDT to design all 3 lines of the profile simultaniously (each line
gets its own horiz. alignment) then produce a single profile that shows all
3 lines separated vertically by a 100 grid. This profile gets externally
referenced into our construction drawings for plots that are used for plan
check and construction staking.

If I understand what your suggesting is that 3 different profiles could
be used to develop the design and then brought together as a representation
on a single (CL) profile for construction drawings should work. In theory...

Let me know if I miss understood.

Gene

[Anonymous]

Hi, whoever you are:

This is definitely all tied to one and the same. I'm latching on to this
subject for the moment as it represents a part of road design that typically
falls away from a normal typical section design process, as do
intersections. While we may be able to provide a "push-button" soulution to
a simple road design, cul-de-sac design is usually so case/site specific, it
is more likely that we provide automation tools to make the more common and
time consuming parts easier, as well as some "push-button" items.

From the great responses we've gotten from this thread, it's clear that
there are common tool needed for both cul-de-sacs and roads, take the
representation and labelling of offset profiles for example. It's clear we
need it for both.

Hard to tell - was that an answer?

Mike


wrote in message
news:D1F4421C89C17CCDE2A680804E9FB7B3@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Michael, how about some solutions for design of cul-de-sacs as part of
road
> design, not just as horizontal layout? Intersections?
>
>
> "Michael Rogerson" wrote in
message
> news:EB99763198557D9680B6C63BBBCDE3E6@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > In Civil 3D, we would like to expand our solution base for Cul-De-Sac
> > creation, as well as improve useability. We hope to get are some
> particular
> > common (and not-so-common) configurations for Cul-de-sacs, in regards to
> the
> > horizontal alignment, offsets and, additionally, 3D design details to
help
> > automate the process.
> >
> > Preferred examples would be contained in DWF or DWG files. Also, any
> > available agency standards and examples would be useful as well. We
seek
> > this input to continue improving Autodesk Civil 3D.
> >
> > If you can help, please respond/send examples directly to me at the
> > following email address:
> >
> > mike.rogerson - Add "autodesk.com" at the end of that. If you reply
> > directly to me from this post, make sure to remove the SPAM protection
> from
> > my reply address.
> >
> > Thanks for any help!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Autodesk, Inc.
> > Michael C. Rogerson, PE
> > Product Designer - Program Manager
> > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

Hi Michael,

Like others, we have designed many cul-de-sacs and I think each has been
unique. We have been leaning mostly towards straight grading the flowline
along the curve to guarantee drainage, which causes ACC warping. Where
grades are steep enough we can plane grade the ACC, but have to be careful
near the inlets for shallow grades. From a drafting standpoint we use spot
elevations and %grade arrows on the plan and CL grade on the profile. But,
like others are regulated to, we too may someday need to show true flowline
grades on the profile.

Thanks for listening,

Tyler Townes

"Michael Rogerson" wrote in message
news:E28A2ACC8D019D4991ACCF9F179AB285@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Hi, whoever you are:
>
> This is definitely all tied to one and the same. I'm latching on to this
> subject for the moment as it represents a part of road design that
typically
> falls away from a normal typical section design process, as do
> intersections. While we may be able to provide a "push-button" soulution
to
> a simple road design, cul-de-sac design is usually so case/site specific,
it
> is more likely that we provide automation tools to make the more common
and
> time consuming parts easier, as well as some "push-button" items.
>
> From the great responses we've gotten from this thread, it's clear that
> there are common tool needed for both cul-de-sacs and roads, take the
> representation and labelling of offset profiles for example. It's clear
we
> need it for both.
>
> Hard to tell - was that an answer?
>
> Mike
>
>
> wrote in message
> news:D1F4421C89C17CCDE2A680804E9FB7B3@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Michael, how about some solutions for design of cul-de-sacs as part of
> road
> > design, not just as horizontal layout? Intersections?
> >
> >
> > "Michael Rogerson" wrote in
> message
> > news:EB99763198557D9680B6C63BBBCDE3E6@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > In Civil 3D, we would like to expand our solution base for Cul-De-Sac
> > > creation, as well as improve useability. We hope to get are some
> > particular
> > > common (and not-so-common) configurations for Cul-de-sacs, in regards
to
> > the
> > > horizontal alignment, offsets and, additionally, 3D design details to
> help
> > > automate the process.
> > >
> > > Preferred examples would be contained in DWF or DWG files. Also, any
> > > available agency standards and examples would be useful as well. We
> seek
> > > this input to continue improving Autodesk Civil 3D.
> > >
> > > If you can help, please respond/send examples directly to me at the
> > > following email address:
> > >
> > > mike.rogerson - Add "autodesk.com" at the end of that. If you reply
> > > directly to me from this post, make sure to remove the SPAM protection
> > from
> > > my reply address.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Autodesk, Inc.
> > > Michael C. Rogerson, PE
> > > Product Designer - Program Manager
> > > ISD Civil Engineering Software Development
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>