best practices for point styles...

[rharries]

I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points, point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be used to created utulity alignments, yet not displayed in plans. When i freeze the marker layer, the water nodes, (hydrants, valves, etc) also become frozen, which is bad.

I have toyed with the notion of creating utility paint layers, yet before i further complicate our Civil 3D layering system, i am interested to know how other's have dealt with this issue.

and Laurie C, your response is not necessary.

Thanks in advance.
rharries

[Sinc]

Easiest way to do that is to use Layer 0 as the Point Layer. Then configure your Point Style to put the Point Marker on one layer, and the Point Label on the other. Set everything else in the Point Style -> Display Tab to "ByLayer".

This way, you can control the display of both the Marker and the Label independently, using the layer controls.

Drawbacks to this method are that your points are "living" on Layer 0, so you cannot select points by layer anymore. Instead, use the Point Group. You may want to download the SincpacC3D, which includes a command that lets you select points by point group, since this ability does not exist in C3D out-of-the-box. Also, you can no longer use the LAYFRZ and LAYOFF commands to pick a point and turn off or freeze its layer, since the point is really living on Layer 0. Instead, go to the Layer Manager, and turn off or freeze your PNTS-WATER-MARKER or PNTS-WATER-LABEL layer there. Or use the Point Group to override the point display for all points in the point group.

[Anonymous]

If you wish to use layers to control visibility f labels, then you need to
turn off the Layer Override in the Key Description table and allow the
Popint Style layers to take effect. The downside of this is that when you
list a point it will always return that it is on layer 0, even though
turning off the appropriate point style layer will effect the point. You
will see from my attached Point Style settings that the Power Pole is put
onto 2 layers, but the label information is not normally visible.
However, when I first import the survey information I want to see
EVERYTHING. To accomplish this I have a point group called checksurvey
which includes all points and has an override label style that displays all
data. This group is at the top of my group list in my template. See picture
number 2.

When I want the points to look how I want when I plot, I go into Point Group
properties and simply move this point group to the bottom of the list of
pointgroups.

When you get used to it, it is very efficient.

As I said, you can accomplish this with disabling the layers in the Key
Description Table, but I like to see the object layer when I list it, so
that option was out.

Hope I have been clear in my explanation.

By the way, this has been learned through trial and error so someone may
come in with a better method.

Good luck

Jon

wrote in message news:5837198@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points,
point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating
between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For
example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by
type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would
naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be
used to created utulity alignments, yet not displayed in plans. When i
freeze the marker layer, the water nodes, (hydrants, valves, etc) also
become frozen, which is bad.

I have toyed with the notion of creating utility paint layers, yet before i
further complicate our Civil 3D layering system, i am interested to know how
other's have dealt with this issue.

and Laurie C, your response is not necessary.

Thanks in advance.
rharries

[Anonymous]

Bad experience with Laurie?

--
Matt Kolberg
Global CADD Systems
www.gcscorp.ca



wrote in message news:5837198@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points,
point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating
between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For
example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by
type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would
naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be
used to created utulity alignments, yet not displayed in plans. When i
freeze the marker layer, the water nodes, (hydrants, valves, etc) also
become frozen, which is bad.

I have toyed with the notion of creating utility paint layers, yet before i
further complicate our Civil 3D layering system, i am interested to know how
other's have dealt with this issue.

and Laurie C, your response is not necessary.

Thanks in advance.
rharries

[Anonymous]

What should happen is that all styles and labels should be set within their
own "layer manager" and not intermingled with the old fashioned "layer
manager". With all of this talk about forget what you learned in LDD but
still have a double system of layers is stupid!

If someone can provide more reason to why I should not think it is stupid
then please chime in. Time is ticking on my end and I need to make critical
choices in deciding whether or not to move my company's interest in a
different direction.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"Matt Kolberg" wrote in message
news:5837291@discussion.autodesk.com...
Bad experience with Laurie?

--
Matt Kolberg
Global CADD Systems
www.gcscorp.ca



wrote in message news:5837198@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points,
point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating
between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For
example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by
type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would
naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be

[Anonymous]

Personally, I like having the flexibility that is available. It is only
complex once: then the template is ready to go. The fact that I can toggle
between "See ALL data" and "What does the plot look like" simply by moving a
point group is great.

You are advocating a new layer manager just for the point styles? That is
exactly what can be achieved in the the point style settings where you can
Turn off the visibility of the label, even though you can still have the
label on the same layer as the symbol. Thats plenty of control for me. In
fact, it is probably the dinosaur in me that still has separate layers for
symbols and labels: not really necessary but it doesn't overly complicate
things (altho when I dumb it down to give to someone else, the extra layers
are good for them).

I know that the flexibility in C3D has made my little company so much more
efficient than my competitors that I no longer price jobs on how quickly we
can do the job but on how slowly ALL of my competitors do theirs. Makes for
some pretty good hourly rates.

In summary, complexity is bad, but flexibility is king.

Jon

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837310@discussion.autodesk.com...
What should happen is that all styles and labels should be set within their
own "layer manager" and not intermingled with the old fashioned "layer
manager". With all of this talk about forget what you learned in LDD but
still have a double system of layers is stupid!

If someone can provide more reason to why I should not think it is stupid
then please chime in. Time is ticking on my end and I need to make critical
choices in deciding whether or not to move my company's interest in a
different direction.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"Matt Kolberg" wrote in message
news:5837291@discussion.autodesk.com...
Bad experience with Laurie?

--
Matt Kolberg
Global CADD Systems
www.gcscorp.ca



wrote in message news:5837198@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points,
point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating
between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For
example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by
type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would
naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be

[Sinc]

There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example, if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

You could create a label style for the nodisplay points. Specify a noplot
layer (or a layer that you will freeze later) for that label style. When
you freeze that layer, the label should disappear regardless of what layer
the actual point is on and regardless of the layers specified for the point
style. Also, the point style should remain visible.

Sincerely,
Drew Burgasser
CAD Masters, Inc.
www.cadmasters.com



wrote in message news:5837198@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am having some difficulty understanding "best practices" for using points,
point styles, and desc. keys. The difficulty i am having is differentiating
between points that do and do not display in our production drawings. For
example, we have always (and i am willing to adapt) sorted utility points by
type (pnts-water, pnts-telecom, etc.) Painted utility locates would
naturally be placed on that utility's point layer. These points would be
used to created utulity alignments, yet not displayed in plans. When i
freeze the marker layer, the water nodes, (hydrants, valves, etc) also
become frozen, which is bad.

I have toyed with the notion of creating utility paint layers, yet before i
further complicate our Civil 3D layering system, i am interested to know how
other's have dealt with this issue.

and Laurie C, your response is not necessary.

Thanks in advance.
rharries

[Anonymous]

Well at least we are beginning to get some honest
answers. I was advocating a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not
just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two
small projects and would like either of you (or others) to tell me how
long it would have taken you to generate the work. I will tell you time
spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and what my margins were?
Please understand that this is not a way for me to marginalize one ove the
other. I just would like an honest answer. They will be posted on
autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when
claiming "how fast" v. "how slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have
put much effort in ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still
doing an excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the
change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">
size=2>www.tidesign.biz

size=2>PowerCivil/C3D
.

<sinc> wrote in message
href="news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com">
size=2>news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com
size=2>...

There isn't a "double system of
layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together.  It isn't a simple
system, but it works well.  For example, I can use a surface Style to
control the display of individual surfaces.  But my Style puts all the TIN
lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at
once by using the layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display
styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only
Styles to control visibility.  But you lose a lot of flexibility that
way.  And if you need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D,
you can create a disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now,
I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel Labels on the
"Parcel Segment" layer.  That sort of thing creates an awful lot of
problems.  Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer.  For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and freeze/turn
off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be
worked around.

[Anonymous]

OK the site will not allow me to post? What was the
NG for uploading files?
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated
Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...

Well at least we are beginning to get some honest
answers. I was advocating a secondary layer system for all styles labels and
not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two
small projects and would like either of you (or others) to tell me how
long it would have taken you to generate the work. I will tell you time
spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and what my margins were?
Please understand that this is not a way for me to marginalize one ove the
other. I just would like an honest answer. They will be posted on
autodesk.dwf under Scope of
Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when
claiming "how fast" v. "how slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have
put much effort in ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still
doing an excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the
change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">
size=2>www.tidesign.biz

size=2>PowerCivil/C3D
.

<sinc> wrote in message
href="news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com">
size=2>news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com
size=2>...

There isn't a "double system of
layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together.  It isn't a simple
system, but it works well.  For example, I can use a surface Style to
control the display of individual surfaces.  But my Style puts all the
TIN lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces
at once by using the layer, even though the surfaces may be using different
display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use
only Styles to control visibility.  But you lose a lot of flexibility
that way.  And if you need to share drawings with people who are NOT
using C3D, you can create a disaster for them if you put everything on Layer
0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put
Parcel Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer.  That sort of thing creates
an awful lot of problems.  Also, they should include a way of selecting
an item and freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. 
For example, if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker
on my MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these
things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

ok it should be under
autodesk.autocad.customer-files just waiting to see if the first one gets
loaded...rejected again...maybe i will try to uplad each one
seperately...
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design,
LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com...

OK the site will not allow me to post? What was
the NG for uploading files?
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra
Integrated Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...

Well at least we are beginning to get some
honest answers. I was advocating a secondary layer system for all styles
labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of
two small projects and would like either of you (or others) to tell me how
long it would have taken you to generate the work. I will tell you time
spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and what my margins were?
Please understand that this is not a way for me to marginalize one ove the
other. I just would like an honest answer. They will be posted on
autodesk.dwf under Scope of
Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use
when claiming "how fast" v. "how slow"? I have seen some very fast people
who have put much effort in ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and
are still doing an excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed
to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design,
LLC

size=2>www.tidesign.biz

size=2>PowerCivil/C3D
.

<sinc> wrote in message
href="news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com">
size=2>news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com
size=2>...

There isn't a "double system
of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together.  It isn't a
simple system, but it works well.  For example, I can use a surface
Style to control the display of individual surfaces.  But my Style puts
all the TIN lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for
all surfaces at once by using the layer, even though the surfaces may be
using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything
on Layer 0 and use only Styles to control visibility.  But you lose a
lot of flexibility that way.  And if you need to share drawings with
people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a disaster for them if you put
everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things
Autodesk did, like put Parcel Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. 
That sort of thing creates an awful lot of problems.  Also, they should
include a way of selecting an item and freezing the "apparent" layer, rather
than the "real" layer.  For example, if my Point is on Layer 0 and my
Point Style puts my Point Marker on my MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able
to pick the Point Marker and freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT
Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

ZIP it Z, for whatever reason the forum software doesn't like
most files posted from OE. Add it to a ZIP file and it will most always
work.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837286@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837286@discussion.autodesk.com...

ok it should be under
autodesk.autocad.customer-files just waiting to see if the first one gets
loaded...rejected again...maybe i will try to uplad each one
seperately...
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design,
LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com...

OK the site will not allow me to post? What was
the NG for uploading files?
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra
Integrated Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote
in message
href="news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...

Well at least we are beginning to get some
honest answers. I was advocating a secondary layer system for all styles
labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of
two small projects and would like either of you (or others) to tell me how
long it would have taken you to generate the work. I will tell you
time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and what my
margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They
will be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of
Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use
when claiming "how fast" v. "how slow"? I have seen some very fast people
who have put much effort in ensuring that they stay competative with LDD
and are still doing an excellent job of it and you will find them hard
pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated
Design, LLC

size=2>www.tidesign.biz

size=2>PowerCivil/C3D
.

<sinc> wrote in message
href="news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com">
size=2>news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.co...
size=2>...

There isn't a "double
system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together.  It
isn't a simple system, but it works well.  For example, I can use a
surface Style to control the display of individual surfaces.  But my
Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN lines
on/off for all surfaces at once by using the layer, even though the
surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if
you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to control
visibility.  But you lose a lot of flexibility that way.  And if
you need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can
create a disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I
really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel Labels on
the "Parcel Segment" layer.  That sort of thing creates an awful lot
of problems.  Also, they should include a way of selecting an item
and freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer.  For
example, if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker
on my MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these
things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

Good one Jeff....Zippy!

Yeah I tried the zip but it seems not to like the
size or it keeps timing out. It may be an issue on my end however I did load up
the individual DWF files. The files and project are very small...

I still have two in my outbox that will not go but
figure they should soon...
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated
Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Jeff Mishler" <miffATsonicDOTnet> wrote in message
href="news:5837288@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837288@discussion.autodesk.com...

ZIP it Z, for whatever reason the forum software doesn't
like most files posted from OE. Add it to a ZIP file and it will most always
work.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote in
message
href="news:5837286@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837286@discussion.autodesk.com...

ok it should be under
autodesk.autocad.customer-files just waiting to see if the first one gets
loaded...rejected again...maybe i will try to uplad each one
seperately...
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design,
LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz> wrote
in message
href="news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837375@discussion.autodesk.com...

OK the site will not allow me to post? What
was the NG for uploading files?
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra
Integrated Design, LLC

href="http://www.tidesign.biz">www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Zdenko Novkovic" <
href="mailto:znovkovic@tidesign.biz">znovkovic@tidesign.biz>
wrote in message
href="news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com">news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...

Well at least we are beginning to get some
honest answers. I was advocating a secondary layer system for all styles
labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files
of two small projects and would like either of you (or others) to tell
me how long it would have taken you to generate the work. I will
tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They
will be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of
Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in
use when claiming "how fast" v. "how slow"? I have seen some very fast
people who have put much effort in ensuring that they stay competative
with LDD and are still doing an excellent job of it and you will find
them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra
Integrated Design, LLC

face=Arial size=2>www.tidesign.biz

size=2>PowerCivil/C3D
.

<sinc> wrote in message
href="news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com">
size=2>news:5837325@discussion.autodes...
size=2>...

There isn't a "double
system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together.  It
isn't a simple system, but it works well.  For example, I can use a
surface Style to control the display of individual surfaces.  But
my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific layer, so I can turn TIN
lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the layer, even though
the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work
if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to control
visibility.  But you lose a lot of flexibility that way.  And
if you need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can
create a disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now,
I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel Labels
on the "Parcel Segment" layer.  That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems.  Also, they should include a way of selecting an
item and freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real"
layer.  For example, if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style
puts my Point Marker on my MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick
the Point Marker and freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT
Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

Hey Jon,

the server keeps telling me that it "rejects" the upload not sure why at
this point...i think what I will do is put it up on my ftp site for
download...give me a few minutes to take care of it and i will get back to
the forum and continue the competative edge...

--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837390@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around. Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

[Anonymous]

ok try this out...there are two zip files that contain all of the dwf
files...

http://www.tidesign.biz/cad-upload/
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837413@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hey Jon,

the dam server keeps telling me that it "rejects" the upload not sure why at
this point...i think what I will do is put it up on my ftp site for
download...give me a few minutes to take care of it and i will get back to
the forum and continue the competative edge...

--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837390@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

You are right about the false economy and do not recommend draw as you go.
More of pencil it as you go (take pictures - great liability saver) more
efficient and easier to debrief when back in the office and easier to
re-create once the understanding and communication is made. I will at times
do a walk through at the request of the Construction Manager to make sure
that what is needed is shot and it makes the CM feel all warm and fuzzy and
he won't have to mobilize multiple time due to stupid mistakes.

I think they feel cool and important with a laptop in the field 🙂

You should see the looks contractors give or better yet the comments? like..
so that is why our stakes are all f..ed up or can I order a pizza? Those are
the clean ones!

You certainly present an argument that can't be argued. How much time did it
take to get the field crew up to speed with new coding that C3D offers? What
is Stringer and what would the outcome be if you did not use Stringer. I
assume it is an outside third party software that makes life easier for your
firm.

All of my survey is farmed out and it is a pass through cost with additional
coordination, meeting, and compliance $markup$. So for example 2850 lf of 60
ft ROW to develop a finished existing surveyed condition drawing (dwg) with
one foot contours, tins, breaklines for about $3.50/lf to $6/lf. Typically
it will include 50 ft stations with approximately 10 to 20 shots per
section. If the project requires more detail due to difficulty with terrain
or a heavy utility corridor then we adjust accordingly. In most cases I get
involved during the first day setup or site walk through to ensure that
there is a clear understanding of what is expected from both parties, then
they can have at it. The dollar value always seems to fall within industry
standards and to some extent validated using RS Means cost estimates which I
use heavily to do budgets and just f-art around with numbers (rs means
costworks - online; www.rsmeans.com).

I have yet to work with anyone that does not use either LDD or Bentley.
Still waiting on my first C3D partner and will keep you informed if the cost
goes up or if they keep the money in their pockets. I am not overly
concerned with fees since they seem to work themselves out. But there is a
limit...

Generaly speaking the lowest margin made on my end was 17% return and the
highest so far has been 27% (LDD). I try to strive, prior to C3D, for at
least a 13-15% return. The two projects uploaded are too embarassing to even
mention and they were really small.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837390@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

Firstly, Stringer is an addon, but its one that I initiated about 11 years
ago when I started my own survey company. I liked Softdesk and wanted to
remain inside autocad for my survey reductions. I wrote stringer as in an
in-house programme to enhance Softdesk, then Land Desktop, now C3D. Its
initial premise was to allow me to dynamically created breaklines inside
autocad. Importing a fieldbook to generate linework is a static process. To
fix a breakline you have to change the fieldbook and reimport. Stringer
allows me to edit codes inside LDD/C3D and have the linework, breaklines,
and dtm update dynamically. Stringer has since grown to include a heap of
other routines and was first bundled and sold commercially about 5 years
ago. www.stringersurvey.com
If I didn't have Stringer I would say my office productivity would go from
1day field=2 hours office to 1 day field=4 days office so not a massive
difference. Most of the power is definitely in LDD/C3D over the other
products, especially the non-acad products, because Everyone wants drawings
in Autocad.
You mentioned about training the field crews: we haven't had to change out
field practices since day one, except that we have streamlined our coding
where it improves the FIELD efficiency. I am a big believer in making life
better for the field guys, even at the expense of the office guy (there is a
2.5 to 1 ratio on costs, but the guys in the field are also often working in
conditions that are less than ideal)

The big advantage of c3d over ldd is the dynamic nature of (nearly)
everything, but I was very happy with LDD as well.

For you example below, there would be about 900 shots (58 sections at 15
shots per section). If I was pricing this, my quote would be (based on $135
per hour, the going rate here):
16 hours field @ 135
2 hours driving @ 135
16 hours office @ 85
Total $3790 less 15% to win job because this is what my competitors would
quote = $3220

My actual survey costs:
10 hours field
2 hours driving (cause it is still more than 1 day)
4 hours office
Total $1960

I haven't missed a job that I wanted in over 4 years.
I really do believe that the dynamic nature of c3d directly leads to cost
savings, but on a day to day basis there is very little difference is usage
between c3d and ldd (for topo work). Our field codes certainly haven't
changed.
Actually, if I was using LDD, the only cost that would change would be the
office time: it would probably go to 6 hours office, which means my costs
would increase by $170. By the end of the week, this would average out to
about 5 hours productivity (per survey crew) which equates to $425 per week
per survey crew. I have gone from Softdesk to LDD to C3D so I'm pretty sure
of my numbers. And this is just detail/topographic surveys. Subdivisions,
dynamic tables for points, dynamic labels, etc are even better.

Jon

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837416@discussion.autodesk.com...
You are right about the false economy and do not recommend draw as you go.
More of pencil it as you go (take pictures - great liability saver) more
efficient and easier to debrief when back in the office and easier to
re-create once the understanding and communication is made. I will at times
do a walk through at the request of the Construction Manager to make sure
that what is needed is shot and it makes the CM feel all warm and fuzzy and
he won't have to mobilize multiple time due to stupid mistakes.

I think they feel cool and important with a laptop in the field 🙂

You should see the looks contractors give or better yet the comments? like..
so that is why our stakes are all f..ed up or can I order a pizza? Those are
the clean ones!

You certainly present an argument that can't be argued. How much time did it
take to get the field crew up to speed with new coding that C3D offers? What
is Stringer and what would the outcome be if you did not use Stringer. I
assume it is an outside third party software that makes life easier for your
firm.

All of my survey is farmed out and it is a pass through cost with additional
coordination, meeting, and compliance $markup$. So for example 2850 lf of 60
ft ROW to develop a finished existing surveyed condition drawing (dwg) with
one foot contours, tins, breaklines for about $3.50/lf to $6/lf. Typically
it will include 50 ft stations with approximately 10 to 20 shots per
section. If the project requires more detail due to difficulty with terrain
or a heavy utility corridor then we adjust accordingly. In most cases I get
involved during the first day setup or site walk through to ensure that
there is a clear understanding of what is expected from both parties, then
they can have at it. The dollar value always seems to fall within industry
standards and to some extent validated using RS Means cost estimates which I
use heavily to do budgets and just f-art around with numbers (rs means
costworks - online; www.rsmeans.com).

I have yet to work with anyone that does not use either LDD or Bentley.
Still waiting on my first C3D partner and will keep you informed if the cost
goes up or if they keep the money in their pockets. I am not overly
concerned with fees since they seem to work themselves out. But there is a
limit...

Generaly speaking the lowest margin made on my end was 17% return and the
highest so far has been 27% (LDD). I try to strive, prior to C3D, for at
least a 13-15% return. The two projects uploaded are too embarassing to even
mention and they were really small.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837390@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Anonymous]

Good morning Jon,

Your costs are in fact comparable to what we use out here. The one item that
I did not include in my cost per lf was that it did include potholing and
surface utility locating (dry utilities, water line - only). If I were to
specfically bill out just the survey you would find that our dollar to hour
ratio is approximately the same. I use a dynamic price structure for
surveying (and other) depending on project type. A PLS will get billed
anywhere from $95 to $130 per hour, and a field crew of 3 at $210 per hour.
Remember this is true if I have a lump sum contract, other project types
would possibly require me to specifically state a flat hourly fee.

In the past when LDD 1 and older (Softdesk/DCA) was around, I ended up just
asking for the field book/notes with photos and I did the linework for the
simple fact that I did not trust what I recieved digitally from survey
companies. This is not a knock towards the industry but at that time the
civil technical industry as a whole had many draftsmen/technicians who knew
how to run the software but did not understand how to put it together. So
there were times I would get breaklines that just did not make sense with my
site visit or topography. However after working closer with several survey
firms and explaining the data required and how it would benefit their pocket
book and my willingness to pay for that service it did not take long to
change our relationship in the right direction, not to mention creating a
collaboration on future projects.

I really don't want to beat a dead horse, and in general agree the direction
that C3D is intended for will make life better, it is the implementation
that I feel will be a problem.. I am still trying to get a handle on
streamlining "check in", and "check out" point features without getting so
confused that at times completely delete all the points and re-import to
start clean. I don't trust myself to the point that I actaully take the
extra time to calculate things by hand to make sure my confidence is not
shaken. The most important aspect of this change is the COMFORT level and
that is what is missing.

I never believed in "standards" but always a proponent of "guidelines". The
capabilities of C3D are very dynamic but not stable, which then brings in
thoughts of insecurity and not knowing if it is the software or the persons
methodology. Maybe it is to dynamic for a single release? But I can't
comment on that aspect since the inception of C3D was born in the 04-05
season
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837468@discussion.autodesk.com...
Firstly, Stringer is an addon, but its one that I initiated about 11 years
ago when I started my own survey company. I liked Softdesk and wanted to
remain inside autocad for my survey reductions. I wrote stringer as in an
in-house programme to enhance Softdesk, then Land Desktop, now C3D. Its
initial premise was to allow me to dynamically created breaklines inside
autocad. Importing a fieldbook to generate linework is a static process. To
fix a breakline you have to change the fieldbook and reimport. Stringer
allows me to edit codes inside LDD/C3D and have the linework, breaklines,
and dtm update dynamically. Stringer has since grown to include a heap of
other routines and was first bundled and sold commercially about 5 years
ago. www.stringersurvey.com
If I didn't have Stringer I would say my office productivity would go from
1day field=2 hours office to 1 day field=4 days office so not a massive
difference. Most of the power is definitely in LDD/C3D over the other
products, especially the non-acad products, because Everyone wants drawings
in Autocad.
You mentioned about training the field crews: we haven't had to change out
field practices since day one, except that we have streamlined our coding
where it improves the FIELD efficiency. I am a big believer in making life
better for the field guys, even at the expense of the office guy (there is a
2.5 to 1 ratio on costs, but the guys in the field are also often working in
conditions that are less than ideal)

The big advantage of c3d over ldd is the dynamic nature of (nearly)
everything, but I was very happy with LDD as well.

For you example below, there would be about 900 shots (58 sections at 15
shots per section). If I was pricing this, my quote would be (based on $135
per hour, the going rate here):
16 hours field @ 135
2 hours driving @ 135
16 hours office @ 85
Total $3790 less 15% to win job because this is what my competitors would
quote = $3220

My actual survey costs:
10 hours field
2 hours driving (cause it is still more than 1 day)
4 hours office
Total $1960

I haven't missed a job that I wanted in over 4 years.
I really do believe that the dynamic nature of c3d directly leads to cost
savings, but on a day to day basis there is very little difference is usage
between c3d and ldd (for topo work). Our field codes certainly haven't
changed.
Actually, if I was using LDD, the only cost that would change would be the
office time: it would probably go to 6 hours office, which means my costs
would increase by $170. By the end of the week, this would average out to
about 5 hours productivity (per survey crew) which equates to $425 per week
per survey crew. I have gone from Softdesk to LDD to C3D so I'm pretty sure
of my numbers. And this is just detail/topographic surveys. Subdivisions,
dynamic tables for points, dynamic labels, etc are even better.

Jon

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837416@discussion.autodesk.com...
You are right about the false economy and do not recommend draw as you go.
More of pencil it as you go (take pictures - great liability saver) more
efficient and easier to debrief when back in the office and easier to
re-create once the understanding and communication is made. I will at times
do a walk through at the request of the Construction Manager to make sure
that what is needed is shot and it makes the CM feel all warm and fuzzy and
he won't have to mobilize multiple time due to stupid mistakes.

I think they feel cool and important with a laptop in the field 🙂

You should see the looks contractors give or better yet the comments? like..
so that is why our stakes are all f..ed up or can I order a pizza? Those are
the clean ones!

You certainly present an argument that can't be argued. How much time did it
take to get the field crew up to speed with new coding that C3D offers? What
is Stringer and what would the outcome be if you did not use Stringer. I
assume it is an outside third party software that makes life easier for your
firm.

All of my survey is farmed out and it is a pass through cost with additional
coordination, meeting, and compliance $markup$. So for example 2850 lf of 60
ft ROW to develop a finished existing surveyed condition drawing (dwg) with
one foot contours, tins, breaklines for about $3.50/lf to $6/lf. Typically
it will include 50 ft stations with approximately 10 to 20 shots per
section. If the project requires more detail due to difficulty with terrain
or a heavy utility corridor then we adjust accordingly. In most cases I get
involved during the first day setup or site walk through to ensure that
there is a clear understanding of what is expected from both parties, then
they can have at it. The dollar value always seems to fall within industry
standards and to some extent validated using RS Means cost estimates which I
use heavily to do budgets and just f-art around with numbers (rs means
costworks - online; www.rsmeans.com).

I have yet to work with anyone that does not use either LDD or Bentley.
Still waiting on my first C3D partner and will keep you informed if the cost
goes up or if they keep the money in their pockets. I am not overly
concerned with fees since they seem to work themselves out. But there is a
limit...

Generaly speaking the lowest margin made on my end was 17% return and the
highest so far has been 27% (LDD). I try to strive, prior to C3D, for at
least a 13-15% return. The two projects uploaded are too embarassing to even
mention and they were really small.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
"jon" wrote in message
news:5837390@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm having all sorts of trouble with the dwf files. Only No 3 loads up. The
others lock up.
Firstly, my competitors do not use LDD. They are generally using programs
from the 90's. One is using Carlson on laptops for their field work. Carlson
make a very good data collection program, but when you then use a laptop in
the field your efficiency drops significantly. I get the arguments about
drawing as you go, etc, but the reality is that saving 1 hour office time
with an extra hour field time is false economy: 2 guys and $60k worth of
gear (including car) to save 1 office guy with $12k worth of gear (laptop
and software) the same amount of time. Example: 5000 point job will take us
50 hours in the field = 6.2 days. Carlson company users achieve 450 shots a
day = 11 days. We then have 6 days of travel: they have 11 days of travel
time. Add accommodation if the job is out of town and you can see why I
don't like laptops attached to the instrument.

Generally, we achieve an average of 100 shots per hour (fully coded),
including control. So in a day, we would expect to shoot around 800 points
over and above the control, which would probably be around 5 stations for
this number of points.

Because I am working in c3d (with Stringer) I only have to allocate 2 hours
(maximum, usually 1 hour) per field day to process and pretty up. I know my
sompetitors allow 1 for 1.

Using the above example, my costs for 5000 points would be for 6.2 days
field + 2 days office
Carlson user: 11 days field + 11 days field
Other User (civilcad, which is very like eaglepoint) - 9 days field
(datarecorder)+ 9 days office

Regards,
Jon Rasmussen

"Zdenko Novkovic" wrote in message
news:5837285@discussion.autodesk.com...
Well at least we are beginning to get some honest answers. I was advocating
a secondary layer system for all styles labels and not just one item.

I will upload the two zip files of two small projects and would like either
of you (or others) to tell me how long it would have taken you to generate
the work. I will tell you time spent using C3D and time spent using LDD and
what my margins were? Please understand that this is not a way for me to
marginalize one ove the other. I just would like an honest answer. They will
be posted on autodesk.dwf under Scope of Work.

Jon you have a very broad cliche in use when claiming "how fast" v. "how
slow"? I have seen some very fast people who have put much effort in
ensuring that they stay competative with LDD and are still doing an
excellent job of it and you will find them hard pressed to make the change.
--
Z. Novkovic, PE
Terra Integrated Design, LLC
www.tidesign.biz
PowerCivil/C3D
..
wrote in message news:5837325@discussion.autodesk.com...
There isn't a "double system of layers"...

We use Styles and Layers together. It isn't a simple system, but it works
well. For example, I can use a surface Style to control the display of
individual surfaces. But my Style puts all the TIN lines on a specific
layer, so I can turn TIN lines on/off for all surfaces at once by using the
layer, even though the surfaces may be using different display styles.

C3D will work if you put everything on Layer 0 and use only Styles to
control visibility. But you lose a lot of flexibility that way. And if you
need to share drawings with people who are NOT using C3D, you can create a
disaster for them if you put everything on Layer 0.

Now, I really dislike some of the things Autodesk did, like put Parcel
Labels on the "Parcel Segment" layer. That sort of thing creates an awful
lot of problems. Also, they should include a way of selecting an item and
freezing the "apparent" layer, rather than the "real" layer. For example,
if my Point is on Layer 0 and my Point Style puts my Point Marker on my
MONUMENT-SYM layer, I want to be able to pick the Point Marker and
freeze/turn off the MONUMENT-SYM layer, and NOT Layer 0.

But these things can be worked around.

[Sinc]

>> If I didn't have Stringer I would say my office productivity would go from 1day field=2 hours office to 1 day field=4 days office so not a massive difference.


Did you mean to say that without Stringer, you would have 1 day field = 4 hours office? That would make more sense.

We have not yet been using Stringer, but I'd say if the field guy does a good job, we get 1 day in the field = 2 hours office WITHOUT Stringer. Where it gets different is if the field guy doesn't do a very good job of using the linework commands in the field, and I have to do a lot of cleanup to the FBK file before importing it. That can easily mean 1 day field will take me 4 hours office, or even longer if it's really bad.

There was one survey where the field guy spent 2 days and got the linework totally mangled; it took me about 2 days in the office to fix that one. But that's an exception, caused when the field guy was new to linework commands. Usually it goes much better.

I DO like your philosophy MUCH MUCH better than Autodesk's, however - get that data in the drawing, and THEN worry about cleaning it up there. This whole "clean up the FBK and reimport" thing... well, no comment.