AutoCAD Civil 3D General Discussion

AutoCAD Civil 3D General Discussion

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*Don Reichle
Message 1 of 32 (119 Views)

Ballpark Style Setup times

119 Views, 31 Replies
02-20-2004 12:34 PM
It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to set up the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there are default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they want to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates them from each other). So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how long it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned ones provided? Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is currently a part of the app. I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the Webcast, so I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. Checking practice with theory, you see. TIA, -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc.
*Matthew Anderson
Message 2 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 12:55 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
I would love to have/see a simply way to update the styles in a outside program (not within Civil 3d) to manger sytles in an external database that could be used to import and setup on the office network. Civil 3d appears to have many more "options" that LD3 had in the prototype settings... Matthew Anderson Joseph A Schudt & Associates anderson@jaseng.com "Don Reichle" wrote in message news:40366f09$1_2@newsprd01... > It would help immensely to get a users "read" on how long it takes to set up > the different types of Styles in use for C3D. I am aware that there are > default Styles provided with the app, but we all have different agency > requirements that we must meet. And no two agencies agree on how they want > to see the data represented (not even when only a freeway separates them > from each other). > > So could you kind folks inundate me with some ballpark numbers on how long > it takes to set up a new Style for use in production from the canned ones > provided? > > Please address Points, Grading, Surfaces, Alignments; whatever is currently > a part of the app. > > I asked this same question of the Dan & Dave show today on the Webcast, so > I'm specifically looking to see if you agree with their estimation. Checking > practice with theory, you see. > > TIA, > -- > Don Reichle > "King of Work-Arounds" > Ifland Engineers, Inc. > >
*James Wedding
Message 3 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 01:02 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
If you left me alone with nothing else to do, I estimate that I could spend 3-4 weeks doing nothing but styles. The object styles, those are easy. It's all of the individual label styles that will take _forever_. A style for Left CR, Right CR, OS, No Offset, Vertical OS, CI, etc, etc, etc. The variations on a theme are farily long and endless. Think of all the different ways you label a simple plat, and you see the issue. Now, I DO NOT consider this a problem. It's a do it once, and go on with life issue. That's what CMs are for. My current biggest issue is that there's no way to drop all the styles from a DWT for a given object family (i.e. Surface Labels,) into a target drawing except one at a time. Time consuming as all getout, and that means users won't do it, they'll make it up as they go. -- James Wedding, P.E. IT Manager Jones & Boyd, Inc. Dallas, TX XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 LDT2004+C3D
*Don Reichle
Message 4 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 02:02 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
It's beginning to sound like they need a reality check before they go much further. What I have seen on the Webcasts so far has been very impressive as far as being able to get a design from concept to production. Lots of great bells and whistles. BUT, if the old cliche` about the last 5% of the project (final drafting) takes 95% of the budget, it may be better to just purchase the upgrade and let it simmer untouched until they wrap up some significant loose ends. I am in favor of adopting what I have seen so far, but it would be more than I could sell to the boss, and then hope to keep my job. All these object oriented and associated improvements are great, but not at the price of production. And how can they keep urging us to get in and get our feet wet, if they know that these issues that adversely affect production are lurking just under the surface of the lagoon like a ravenous Great White. I can hear the "Da-Dum" music now, off in the distance. -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "James Wedding" wrote in message news:403675cd_3@newsprd01... > If you left me alone with nothing else to do, I estimate that I could spend > 3-4 weeks doing nothing but styles. The object styles, those are easy. It's > all of the individual label styles that will take _forever_. A style for > Left CR, Right CR, OS, No Offset, Vertical OS, CI, etc, etc, etc. The > variations on a theme are farily long and endless. Think of all the > different ways you label a simple plat, and you see the issue. > > Now, I DO NOT consider this a problem. It's a do it once, and go on with > life issue. That's what CMs are for. My current biggest issue is that > there's no way to drop all the styles from a DWT for a given object family > (i.e. Surface Labels,) into a target drawing except one at a time. Time > consuming as all getout, and that means users won't do it, they'll make it > up as they go. > > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >
*Steve Cannon
Message 5 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 02:08 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
James, You have been playing with Civil 3D ( I suspect going back to Vine) longer than most, and you could spend '3-4 weeks on nothing but styles.' How about the rest of us with much less experience. Maybe large firms with a full time CM can do this, but 3-4 weeks is going to kill many small firms. And - we have not even seen roadway or pipe styles yet. This is a real hurdle that AutoDesk is going to have to address if they expect firms to cozy-up to this product. One step AutoDesk can take - is to publish a real, detailed guide on styles. The current help is worthless when it comes to styles. Some style components are self explanatory, but many are not. A written guide would be very thick, explore in detail civil terms exactly what each setting did, and how different settings interact with each other. Or, it could be a visual electronic file, demonstrating exactly what each and every setting does. Without this bible, the CM is going to have to play with each and every style, and various combination of styles (e.g., see Point Layers thread this NG), comparing and re-writing cad standards as he goes. Some people now make money customizing sheet manager in LDD for firms. Perhaps a whole new cottage industry will rise for C3D (but think of the expense). The real problem I see with styles is, that in practice, it is not going to be a 'do it once, and go on with life issue.' You will not be able to just set them up once before you role out the product. Each job is going to be just enough different that styles and standards are going to have to constantly evolve. Each C3D update will introduce new and different styles. Are you going to investigate and setup every possible grading criteria style for every future job, or are going to leave this to each designer? Will users need enough knowledge of styles to make 'child styles' for peculiar drafting detail. Sounds like every firm will need a full time CM devoted to this product. Sounds like users are going to need a little more than minimal style training. Yes, AutoDesk needs to consider a better management and distribution of styles needs to be considered. Under the current scheme, I see the proliferation of the same style with different definitions in every drawing the C3D touches. Whether you use layer scheme or the style scheme, I was amazed at the proliferation of layers in a C3D drawing. Each object sub-component is going to want its own layer. This is going to greatly impact most firms layer standards. And again, each new release of C3D, will require more and more layers. I find the layer management scheme of r2004 and earlier, ill equipped to deal with this concept. Perhaps the layer groups of r2005 will address this. Perhaps the C3D team will see the advantage of C3D styles having a direct hook into layer groups. Perhaps users should wait for the r2005 edition of C3D? So this raises the issue of when does the CM devote the time to style setup. Will time spent now just be wasted when a new releases come out? But you probably cannot really use C3D until you do some style setup. But then we still are in a Preview Edition, and if you do spend the time, C3D is not powerful enough to complete most any design process. I think this is, in the words of another, part of the never-never land that C3D finds itself it in. Being on the leading edge of a new product, is always time expensive, but I see jumping into this product too soon can be REAL expensive. sc "James Wedding" wrote in message news:403675cd_3@newsprd01... > If you left me alone with nothing else to do, I estimate that I could spend > 3-4 weeks doing nothing but styles. The object styles, those are easy. It's > all of the individual label styles that will take _forever_. A style for > Left CR, Right CR, OS, No Offset, Vertical OS, CI, etc, etc, etc. The > variations on a theme are farily long and endless. Think of all the > different ways you label a simple plat, and you see the issue. > > Now, I DO NOT consider this a problem. It's a do it once, and go on with > life issue. That's what CMs are for. My current biggest issue is that > there's no way to drop all the styles from a DWT for a given object family > (i.e. Surface Labels,) into a target drawing except one at a time. Time > consuming as all getout, and that means users won't do it, they'll make it > up as they go. > > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >
*Don Reichle
Message 6 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 02:21 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
That's what I appreciate most about you Steve. You can actually think something through to it's natural conclusion, and then articulate your thoughts in a logical manner that enables the reader to draw their own conclusion. Most of the time they end up in agreement, but not always. -- Don Reichle "King of Work-Arounds" Ifland Engineers, Inc. "Steve Cannon" wrote in message news:40368558$1_1@newsprd01... > James, > > You have been playing with Civil 3D ( I suspect going back to Vine) longer > than most, and you could spend '3-4 weeks on nothing but styles.' How about > the rest of us with much less experience. Maybe large firms with a full time > CM can do this, but 3-4 weeks is going to kill many small firms. And - we > have not even seen roadway or pipe styles yet. > > This is a real hurdle that AutoDesk is going to have to address if they > expect firms to cozy-up to this product. One step AutoDesk can take - is to > publish a real, detailed guide on styles. The current help is worthless > when it comes to styles. Some style components are self explanatory, but > many are not. A written guide would be very thick, explore in detail civil > terms exactly what each setting did, and how different settings interact > with each other. Or, it could be a visual electronic file, demonstrating > exactly what each and every setting does. Without this bible, the CM is > going to have to play with each and every style, and various combination of > styles (e.g., see Point Layers thread this NG), comparing and re-writing cad > standards as he goes. Some people now make money customizing sheet manager > in LDD for firms. Perhaps a whole new cottage industry will rise for C3D > (but think of the expense). > > The real problem I see with styles is, that in practice, it is not going to > be a 'do it once, and go on with life issue.' You will not be able to just > set them up once before you role out the product. Each job is going to be > just enough different that styles and standards are going to have to > constantly evolve. Each C3D update will introduce new and different styles. > Are you going to investigate and setup every possible grading criteria style > for every future job, or are going to leave this to each designer? Will > users need enough knowledge of styles to make 'child styles' for peculiar > drafting detail. Sounds like every firm will need a full time CM devoted to > this product. Sounds like users are going to need a little more than minimal > style training. > > Yes, AutoDesk needs to consider a better management and distribution of > styles needs to be considered. Under the current scheme, I see the > proliferation of the same style with different definitions in every drawing > the C3D touches. > > Whether you use layer scheme or the style scheme, I was amazed at the > proliferation of layers in a C3D drawing. Each object sub-component is > going to want its own layer. This is going to greatly impact most firms > layer standards. And again, each new release of C3D, will require more and > more layers. I find the layer management scheme of r2004 and earlier, ill > equipped to deal with this concept. Perhaps the layer groups of r2005 will > address this. Perhaps the C3D team will see the advantage of C3D styles > having a direct hook into layer groups. Perhaps users should wait for the > r2005 edition of C3D? > > So this raises the issue of when does the CM devote the time to style setup. > Will time spent now just be wasted when a new releases come out? But you > probably cannot really use C3D until you do some style setup. But then we > still are in a Preview Edition, and if you do spend the time, C3D is not > powerful enough to complete most any design process. I think this is, in the > words of another, part of the never-never land that C3D finds itself it in. > Being on the leading edge of a new product, is always time expensive, but I > see jumping into this product too soon can be REAL expensive. > > sc > > > > "James Wedding" wrote in message > news:403675cd_3@newsprd01... > > If you left me alone with nothing else to do, I estimate that I could > spend > > 3-4 weeks doing nothing but styles. The object styles, those are easy. > It's > > all of the individual label styles that will take _forever_. A style for > > Left CR, Right CR, OS, No Offset, Vertical OS, CI, etc, etc, etc. The > > variations on a theme are farily long and endless. Think of all the > > different ways you label a simple plat, and you see the issue. > > > > Now, I DO NOT consider this a problem. It's a do it once, and go on with > > life issue. That's what CMs are for. My current biggest issue is that > > there's no way to drop all the styles from a DWT for a given object family > > (i.e. Surface Labels,) into a target drawing except one at a time. Time > > consuming as all getout, and that means users won't do it, they'll make it > > up as they go. > > > > -- > > James Wedding, P.E. > > IT Manager > > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > > Dallas, TX > > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > > LDT2004+C3D > > > > > >
*James Wedding
Message 7 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 02:37 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
It's not a matter of experience, it's a matter of the types of work we do. We do Commercial, Single-Family, Multi-Family, some Muni, etc. Fairly typical for a mid-size Civil firm I think. I started thinking about the complete use of style to do a set of plans. I don't want to label any easements with dumb text, I plan to use a parcel label style. IMHO, if you label ANYTHING on your plans, you should use a label with a style, not a damned mtext leader. The time I plan to spend will be to cover all the weird uses I have for labels. I'm sure they're fairly typical, but I think you could use MTEXT for much of it as you were evolving the other pieces. There's nothing that says you can't start until you have ALL your styles defined. We're doing a pilot project later this month. I'm going to basically build all the styles on the fly, then push them out to a DWT file for later evaluation. This is the approach that I see working best, and how we'll do it. I just meant that I could spend weeks doing styles and perfecting styles, not that I actually would. Take a simple project. Do it in C3D (as best you can,) and rip out the styles at the end of the job. Start the next job with those styles built, build some more, rip out the entire set at the end of the job. I'd bet that in a short span of jobs, you'll have styles to cover 90% of your work. One more comment: I'm willing to bet that you will begin to see styles traded like hatch patterns, like fonts, etc within the community. We won't share ours (Competitive? Hell yes,) but I bet that you'll be able to buy collections much like you buy blocks for specific industries. Someone will do the work, and will either donate those efforts, or try to reap the financial rewards of it. We discussed this quite a bit during the beta stages; look for guys like K-Tek and Pelican Ink to be the front runners. They haven't told me of any such plans, but it wouldn't shock me in the slightest. (Oh, Pete & Gary, you can send me my royalties check later... ) Just my take, and it's almost (but not quite,) purely hypothetical at this point, just like the Dan & Dave show is. Ask me in a month how much we're using styles, and I will have a better answer. -- James Wedding, P.E. IT Manager Jones & Boyd, Inc. Dallas, TX XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 LDT2004+C3D
*Greg Cashen
Message 8 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-20-2004 09:36 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Pardon me for butting in. I have posted here a couple of times before, but I mainly use Revit as an architectural engineer. I am trying to learn more about C3D for the civil work we do. It occurs to me that C3D could take a hint from Revit on this one. Revit is fairly similar in the sense that dimension styles, text styles, label styles, tag styles, lineweights, materials, etc all have to be setup in a template. You can go with the default template, but most users create their own. If you want to transfer styles from one project or template to another, you can use the Transfer Project Standards command. It makes it pretty easy to "borrow" standards from other users. I know the developers are on different sides of the country, but it would be nice to see some of the features cross up here. Revit could definitely use some improved site tools! "James Wedding" wrote in message news:403675cd_3@newsprd01... > If you left me alone with nothing else to do, I estimate that I could spend > 3-4 weeks doing nothing but styles. The object styles, those are easy. It's > all of the individual label styles that will take _forever_. A style for > Left CR, Right CR, OS, No Offset, Vertical OS, CI, etc, etc, etc. The > variations on a theme are farily long and endless. Think of all the > different ways you label a simple plat, and you see the issue. > > Now, I DO NOT consider this a problem. It's a do it once, and go on with > life issue. That's what CMs are for. My current biggest issue is that > there's no way to drop all the styles from a DWT for a given object family > (i.e. Surface Labels,) into a target drawing except one at a time. Time > consuming as all getout, and that means users won't do it, they'll make it > up as they go. > > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >
*Steve Cannon
Message 9 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-21-2004 08:34 AM in reply to: *Don Reichle
James, To implement C3D using your strategy, you need 1) a small project with a pretty charitable budget, and 2) a knowledgeable Cad Manager who is also a P.E.( or at least a skilled designer) and who is also a skilled Cad technician, and 3) an understanding boss. Number two probably describes you, but I doubt that many present day civil firms write up the job description for Cad manager in such terms. Maybe they should. I think that is going to take such a person in each firm to get C3D off the ground. On a side note, I am curious. Are you going to take a C3D layer based or a C3D style based approach to object management? Since r2000, we have had style based plotting (stb), but my experience indicates that almost no civil firms have implemented it (still use ctb). Since C3D will require a substantial re-working of the standards anyway, is it also the time that firms should look at going all the way to stb plotting and really scrap the old standards? sc > We're doing a pilot project later this month. I'm going to > basically build all the styles on the fly, then push them > out to a DWT file for later evaluation.
*Laurie Comerford
Message 10 of 32 (119 Views)

Re: Ballpark Style Setup times

02-21-2004 01:02 PM in reply to: *Don Reichle
Hi James, I would see the "default" settings provided with the software will set the drafting style for a large number of small firms. Users will design something and label it with a style. Provided the style displays the necessary data to ensure the project is built correctly and they have no major objections to its appearance, they are likely to plot the drawing and move on. We saw that pattern in Australia, where the default drafting behaviour of a single program essentially set the style that people expected, and despite it's weaknesses, many users have difficulty accepting other software which does not recreate those drafting weaknesses. Your proposed plan of action for a larger firm should work well. Your description of 'someone' creating styles and distributing them is clearly the sort of service we will provide in Australia with the Civil 3D 'AustSupp CD'. In between his various other tasks, Rad has already completed a significant proportion of the work of the creating a set of DWT files for this purpose. -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "James Wedding" wrote in message news:40368c1d$1_3@newsprd01... > It's not a matter of experience, it's a matter of the types of work we do. > We do Commercial, Single-Family, Multi-Family, some Muni, etc. Fairly > typical for a mid-size Civil firm I think. I started thinking about the > complete use of style to do a set of plans. I don't want to label any > easements with dumb text, I plan to use a parcel label style. IMHO, if you > label ANYTHING on your plans, you should use a label with a style, not a > damned mtext leader. > > The time I plan to spend will be to cover all the weird uses I have for > labels. I'm sure they're fairly typical, but I think you could use MTEXT for > much of it as you were evolving the other pieces. There's nothing that says > you can't start until you have ALL your styles defined. We're doing a pilot > project later this month. I'm going to basically build all the styles on the > fly, then push them out to a DWT file for later evaluation. This is the > approach that I see working best, and how we'll do it. I just meant that I > could spend weeks doing styles and perfecting styles, not that I actually > would. > > Take a simple project. Do it in C3D (as best you can,) and rip out the > styles at the end of the job. Start the next job with those styles built, > build some more, rip out the entire set at the end of the job. I'd bet that > in a short span of jobs, you'll have styles to cover 90% of your work. > > One more comment: I'm willing to bet that you will begin to see styles > traded like hatch patterns, like fonts, etc within the community. We won't > share ours (Competitive? Hell yes,) but I bet that you'll be able to buy > collections much like you buy blocks for specific industries. Someone will > do the work, and will either donate those efforts, or try to reap the > financial rewards of it. We discussed this quite a bit during the beta > stages; look for guys like K-Tek and Pelican Ink to be the front runners. > They haven't told me of any such plans, but it wouldn't shock me in the > slightest. (Oh, Pete & Gary, you can send me my royalties check later... > ) > > Just my take, and it's almost (but not quite,) purely hypothetical at this > point, just like the Dan & Dave show is. Ask me in a month how much we're > using styles, and I will have a better answer. > -- > James Wedding, P.E. > IT Manager > Jones & Boyd, Inc. > Dallas, TX > XP/1 on P4-1.6/512 > LDT2004+C3D > >
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