Available point numbers?

[Nrhoads]

What is the fastest way to find which point numbers are used and which are available in C3d 2007?

[Anonymous]

Hi Nicholas,


Why would you have a "Pack Points database" command when you don't have
a Points Database??


Regards,


Laurie Comerford


Nicholas Messina wrote:
> Jason, With you being a Civil 3D guru, could you explain, how or why
> Autodesk would forget such a simple and valuable routine of List
> Available Points? What about Pack Points Database? I believe that some
> of the massive perfomance issues such as Civil 3D crashing when you
> select all points in a large database is due to the fact that the Point
> Database gets too large and has too many gaps. That was certainly the
> case in LDD, if you crash is a large drawing which was very rare, most
> of the times the issue can be resolved via Packing the Point Database.
> In Autodesk's attempt to completely replace LDD, they have forgotten
> some of the commands that were useful.

[nmessina]

Laurie,

As a surveyor, I can definitely tell you there is an external point database file named “Survey.sdb” and resides in the root directory of your project folder. Even if your not a Surveyor and don't create that external survey database, Civil 3D most likely has an internal point database within the drawing. Much like a hard drive, when you delete points it does not actually deletes the point it just makes that space available for overriding.

If you have allot of points that are created, modified, and deleted over a period of time just like a hard drive the database gets cluttered with gaps on empty space. The old LDD command Pack Points Database would go through the process of optimizing the database so that it is read more effectively, just as the windows defragment program.

[Anonymous]

Just an FYI...
The LDD Pack Points just removed deleted points from the database, making
those point numbers available once more, nothing more. This is easily
verified....open the MDB fiel in Access and view it's different tables, but
specifically the Points table. Close the mdb, open LDD to that project, run
the pack points command, save & close. Then re-opne that MDB file in Access
and compare it to what you observed in the prior version of the file.

The Survey Points Database very well may be similar in design, it is a MS
JET DB file (IOW, it can be opened & edited in Access) but without a sample
DB to test with (I don't use the survey DB at this time) I don't know if it
keeps deleted points in the DB.

The points in a drawing do not suffer from that same problem (if it is/was
indeed a problem). They are just drawing objects, and are referenced in
different Point Group collections until they are deleted. However, there is
no remnant object left in the DWG once you delete a point...IOW, once a
point is deleted, it's gone (save for the UNDO command), in LDD you could
retrieve that point up until the time the DB was packed. What MAY impact
this performance-wise, is the ISAVEPERCENT sysvar which affects all dwg
object edits.

I wrote a small program a few years ago that emulated the pack points
command in C3D. There were a number of people that found it useful, perhaps
you will too. It is only for the dwg points, not survey points, though. You
can find it in the c3d.customization group in the thread "Pack" Points, c.
Oct. 2006

If you would like to send me a sample SDB file that has undergone multiple
edits/deletions/etc., I'd be happy to see if there is anything we can do to
speed up the use of this file.

Jeff

"Nicholas Messina"; "PSM" wrote in message
news:620712@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Laurie,
>
> As a surveyor, I can definitely tell you there is an external point
> database file named “Survey.sdb” and resides in the root directory of your
> project folder. Even if your not a Surveyor and don't create that
> external survey database, Civil 3D most likely has an internal point
> database within the drawing. Much like a hard drive, when you delete
> points it does not actually deletes the point it just makes that space
> available for overriding.
>
> If you have allot of points that are created, modified, and deleted over a
> period of time just like a hard drive the database gets cluttered with
> gaps on empty space. The old LDD command Pack Points Database would go
> through the process of optimizing the database so that it is read more
> effectively, just as the windows defragment program.

[Anonymous]

Hi Nicholas,

You are talking about the Survey database. It is independent of any
given drawing and unless you're interacting with it via the Survey
commands, the current Civil 3D session has no interaction of it other
than that it is open or closed. If open it shows some data from the
Database in the Survey toolspace.

Although it contains a Points table amongst other*** tables it is not a
Points database.

***Data Tables in the R2009 survey database:
Figures
FigureGroup
FigureNode
ID
List
Network
NetworkGroup
Observation
Ppoints
PointGroup
Property
ReleaseID
Setup
Traverse

The points table contains fields for:
ID
Revision
Number
name
Northing
Easting
Elevation
Description
IsControlPoint
IsSetupPpoint
NetwrkID
Monument
LandXML

This type of data bears almost no relationship with the type/purpose of
data available in the LDD Points Database. The table is far more
complex than the LDD one and took several hours of study and testing to
fully understand its operations when I was programming the Links between
LINZ and Civil 3D.

Civil 3D can work with Points totally independently of the Survey
database. Any given drawing can get data from numerous Survey databases
(one at a time). You can input survey data to any survey database from
any drawing.

From memory, none of the tables have an "Item Deleted" field, but
rather deleted items are deleted from the table and database and are not
recoverable which is different from the setup of the Land Desktop Points
Database.

Survey database files exist not in the "root directory of a project" but
in the folder you set as shown in the attached screen grab.

Of course for each "Company Project" you can change the folder to suit
your data management requirements, but Civil 3D does not relate this
path to a drawing - or project as such.

The second screen grab shows that there is no way of importing a drawing
based Civil 3D point into the Survey database.
Regards,


Laurie Comerford


Nicholas Messina wrote:
> Laurie,
>
> As a surveyor, I can definitely tell you there is an external point database file named “Survey.sdb” and resides in the root directory of your project folder. Even if your not a Surveyor and don't create that external survey database, Civil 3D most likely has an internal point database within the drawing. Much like a hard drive, when you delete points it does not actually deletes the point it just makes that space available for overriding.
>
> If you have allot of points that are created, modified, and deleted over a period of time just like a hard drive the database gets cluttered with gaps on empty space. The old LDD command Pack Points Database would go through the process of optimizing the database so that it is read more effectively, just as the windows defragment program.

[nmessina]

Laurie,

If you were to look at the attachment you can add Civil 3D points into your Survey database. Just create a Survey Network then right-click on either a Control Point or Non Control Point and pick "Create from Drawing". This will add those drawing based points into the survey database. I'm well aware or the relationship between drawing based points and survey based points with Civil 3D, however, since I'm a surveyor, we need to use primarily the external survey point database, because Autodesk at this point does not allow for Data Referencing Points. Survey Projects typically require the ability to open a clean and empty drawing then import the points from a database.

I'm not here to argue wether, you to want call the database a Point or Survey Database, the fact are Autodesk needs to find a solution for a faster and more reliable handling of Points wether they are in a Drawing or the external survey database. When working with large projects, using LDD days, although rather slow, you could at least select all your points without crashing. I've not figured out a way in Civil 3D to prevent the drawing from crashing if I've made the mistake of selecting all of my objects.

As for the Survey database not residing in the project folder that is a ridiculous notion, that Autodesk needs to improve there logic and thinking on. For example look at the Survey Import Wizzard on C3D 2010. The very first step in the wizzard "should be" to specify the locations or "Working Folder" where the Survey Database resides. On one in my company would ever want that external Survey database to be in anyother folder than our project folder where are drawing reside. They also need to improve the directory structure of the Survey Networks, why do they create a subfolder for each network and place into the project "root directory"

[nmessina]

I'll have to look for the program, hopefully it will solve some of our problems we experience. Currently i've noticed when opening a very large survey with in excess of 8,000+ points Civil 3D crash if you try to select all of your points at once. I have not seen if the lastest Service Pack have infact solved that problem.

[Anonymous]

In Toolspace, I select the Points tree and sort the points by number in the
lower pane.

I can easily see what point numbers are used/unused.

Selecting 8000 points at once with full labels is a huge burden on a PC. I
don't know why you would have to but I would try to work in the Toolspace
when possible to avoid that.

I think you got the answer on packing the db. There is no longer a need
since the db does not analyze what is deleted.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[nmessina]

Burden or not its something that must be done from time to time, the sad part is this was not needed as much with LDD as you can insert points into a drawing by specifying a window, LDD would only bring in points within that window, to my knowledge is not possible in Civil 3D, therefore we must first create a point group by selecting the points in a window or jsut copy the points in that window and paste them into a new drawing.

[Anonymous]

We do much smaller work but we are a surveying firm as well. Something else
you may want to think about is that we have essentially replaced the db with
an asci file. The surveyors lock down their point file & export an asci file
for others to use. When you need a blank dwg with all the points, import the
asci file.

We are suppose to be starting to use the Survey functions for linework I
think it is going well. I think we are only using the db for the linework
and traverse adjustments so the asci file still gets created for what ever
surveyor or engineer needs them for.


--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[nmessina]

Our company does a large variety of surveying jobs, anywhere between a small bus stop survey, for ADA compliance, to entire neighborhood improvement projects that may contain as much as 30k-40k points in one single database.

[Anonymous]

Well then you have to wonder as we did. Does everyone need the db? Once the
topo & property survey are done, what use do you have for it? Can others who
need points just work with Civil 3D point objects? We do engineering &
construction stakeout in our office as well so the answer for us is no. The
engineers use the asci file if they need. All the base map creators use the
asci file if needed and the construction stakeout folks don't need either.
Just our design dwg's & dref's.

--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[Anonymous]

There is a known problem between points and the Properties Palette. As long
as the Palette is off, I can select at least 15,000 points without a
problem. Accessing the palette while that many are selected will result in a
crash. This problem persists in 2010. Note that this is not an issue between
the Survey DB and the drawing points, it is strictly a DWG issue.

Have you submitted a support request for this?

"Nicholas Messina"; "PSM" wrote in message
news:6207342@discussion.autodesk.com...
> I'll have to look for the program, hopefully it will solve some of our
> problems we experience. Currently i've noticed when opening a very large
> survey with in excess of 8,000+ points Civil 3D crash if you try to select
> all of your points at once. I have not seen if the lastest Service Pack
> have infact solved that problem.

[nmessina]

There will always be a need for the Survey database, as a surveyor, many of our jobs never end, as properties, are bought and sold they will always need a new updated ACSM/ALTA Survey to be updated. The Survey database is contains more than just points, it also contains the observations, angles and distances measured. There are many times when a survey has been completed then 1-3 years later an engineer or architect may need more data or information pertaining to one or more individual points.

Then there are the jobs that begin with a survey phase, design phase, construction phase and finally an as-built phase. That type of work simply can not be done in one single drawing therefore their must be an external database or the ability for Data Shortcuts for our Survey Control Points so when we have to adjust and/or add control points they will be availible for all drawing not just your active drawing. This is why Autodesk had to provide surveyors with this external database so that we dont' end up with 2 or more drawings with possibly different control point coordinates. The same is true for Alignments, which can be Data Short-cut reference so that there are not more than one definition of the same alignment.

[nmessina]

No at this time I have not created a support request, as I was hoping this issue will be resolved on 2010, which we have, but did not install at this time. Once we ween all of our users from LDD 2006 then we can install 2010.

[Anonymous]

I don't think you read my post very well. I know you need a db. We do as
well & use it w/o issue.

I can't see your engineers needing to look up observations, angles &
distances form field work. This is my point.


--
John Mayo, PE

Core i7 920 6GB DDR3
Radeon 4870HD 1 GB
Vista64

[Sinc]

> {quote:title=Nicholas Messina, PSM wrote:}{quote}
> They also need to improve the directory structure of the Survey Networks, why do they create a subfolder for each network and place into the project "root directory"

We deal with that issue by selecting a directory inside our project as the Working Folder for the Survey Databases. Then, to also remind us to change the Working Folder, we use our job numbers in the names of every survey database we create. It's not an ideal solution, but we've found it to be the best "all-around" solution, given the current state of the software.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[nmessina]

When creating a new Survey Point Database C3D should create and place the Survey.sdb in a subdirectory called "Survey" as a subfolder to the Project Directory.

For example our job number is 09-0021

G:\2009\09-0021\Survey <----- The Survey.sdb should reside in this "Survey" folder.

Then as you create a new survey networks and import survey data, all FBK files, Coordinate Files and/or Traverse adjustment files should automatically be placed within each the network folder which they were created in and placed as a subfolder to the "Survey" directory, not the "Root Directory"

G:\2009\09-0021\Survey\Network 1 <----- All "Network 1" survey data should be automatically archived in this folder.
G:\2009\09-0021\Survey\Network 2 <----- All "Network 2" survey data should be automatically archived in this folder.

What exactly is the purpose of creating sub folders to for each network if nothing placed into the folder???

[Sinc]

It gives you something to delete in Windows Explorer if you need to delete a Network, since you can't do that from within C3D. 🙂

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com

[nmessina]

The solution should be to give the users options that allow us to specify where we want to place the "Survey.sdb", where we would like to place our Network folders. These settings were once configurable and stored as variables/paths in the sdsk.dfm file. These setting could be easily place in the Survey Users Settings dialog box.

[Sinc]

Well, that would be part of the solution, because ideally we would be able to specify that location relative to the Project directory. But of course, we would need Projects first.

There are also complications once we start thinking in terms of subprojects, or Project Phases. Some data should be shared between subprojects, and some should not. Once the concept of Projects are in the product, all this gets really easy to deal with. In fact, it can even get to the point where archiving and unarchiving Projects or Subprojects (Project Phases) is as simple as hitting a button in the Project Manager. But without Projects, all this stuff turns into a complicated mess that doesn't work very well.

-- Sinc
http://www.ejsurveying.com
http://www.quuxsoft.com