Have you seen the new Civil Geometry tools in SS3?
I have not, and unfortunately ODOT plans on SS2. We will be investigating the offerings and are truly a dual platform shop. I wish we had more collaboration and support, and less Ford vs. Chevy! (although I find my self slipping into the one is better argument; I learned AutoCad and DCA first so with that migration path I PREFER PERSONALLY Civil 3D.
All software has human programmers.....Just like all roadway designs have human designers....It is all an iterative process!
I'm also a fan of having Bentley + Autodesk (and don't forget Carlson) battle it out, as I think the competition makes all products better.
But I have to admit, I hate having to deal with ANYTHING created in a Bentley product. And as an Autodesk expert, I find Bentley products very foreign. I'm getting better with them, but I find it takes me FAR longer to do anything in them. And I see an aweful lot of crashing, reminicent of Civil 3D 2007. C3D still crashes too much for my taste, but the 2012 version crashes FAR less often than I see with Bentley products. Maybe that's a sign that I just know how to avoid the crashes in C3D, and simply don't do things that I know will crash C3D. But it's feeling less and less like that.
As a software engineer, I tend to feel that NO product should crash. I know that's an impossible goal, but it should be the goal, none-the-less. There's nothing worse for a new user than to have the program crash, even if the core problem is unexpected input from the user. The program should, at a bare minimum, attempt to identify the problem and give the user a sane error message explaining what's wrong. A silent crash is the absolute worst result.
After all, how often do you see Word or Excel crash? Or Camtasia Studio, or Photoshop, or Paint Shop Pro, or Sonar, or any other major Windows-based applications? In my experience, none of them crash anywhere near as often as either AutoCAD or Microstation. BOTH applications seem to need a lot of work in that regard. Although again, maybe because I have years of experience in AutoCAD products, I see a lot fewer crashes in C3D than in any flavor of Microstation (even the core product). And I'm still not a fan of Intellicad - makes me feel like I'm using R14 at best. (Haven't yet tried BricsCad, although I've heard claims that it's better than IntelliCad.) I've been impressed with some features in Carlson, but only on an AutoCAD platform, and all-in-all, I feel I can do more with Civil 3D, except in certain areas where Carlson outshines C3D. In other areas, though, Carlson makes me feel like I'm working with clunky out-dated software that is still using 1990's paradigms.
I like the race... Keep it on, all of you! We ourselves (at Quux Software) are taking advantage of the Civil 3D API, and continuing to add EVEN MORE functionality to that product. C3D is expensive, yes, but we tend to feel it's the most-powerful, assuming you know how to use it. Part of that is because it's the most-extensible, and lets third-party developers like us add even more to the mix than the core dev team can come up with on their own. Coupled with the new App Store, which lets each individual user custom-taylor C3D 2013+ in specific ways, we think it's leading the pack. Just our opinion, of course. But I know that at least all of us at Quux Software (me, Jeff Mishler, Christopher Fugitt) are also end-users, doing production work with C3D at the same time, so the tools we add are geared toward making this software as productive as we can possibly manage. And there are other developers doing the same thing. NONE of the other core software packages have an API that lets us do what we can do with C3D. So all of us third-party developers are now starting to be able to use C3D as a core platform, just as al the I-Phone and Droid developers have been able to use their core platforms to create all kinds of neat stuff. So... I think you AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN YET!!!! It's just going to get better from here on.
I believe your statement "But I have to admit, I hate having to deal with ANYTHING created in a Bentley product" nolifies any objectivity you could have. (BTW I struggle with the latest release of camtasia)
I would suspect Bentleys products do feel foreign if you spent your carreer working with AutoDesk then halfheartedly tried to use MicroStation for a year... For those that do commit to learning it the pay-off can be huge.
I have offered numerous times to look at the "crashing" you mention in MicroStation. To date you have not contacted me or support, If your having issues it is not the program, but most likely a conflict with video or some other program or resource that is specific to your machine.
Neils reply earlier in the post gave a much more objective analysis of MicroStation.
Funny, your comment about competition- givin the Caltrans only let AutoDesk compete... Most recent "competition" was in Michigan for Survey, Bentleys SS2 Data Acquisition w/GEOPAK won out
Since Survey is where it all begins, I see a move to using more and more point clouds, Is C3D up for this? ... have some fun, load in a small (800 meg) point cloud file into C3D (note not AutoCAD) then load the same into MicroStation... If you dont have one email me.
BTW- I did respond to Peters post directly through e-mail to "correct" some things. If he chooses to correct them, that is up to him.
Randy Tardy, the late Guy Nesin, Mike Cavanaugh, and Tom Inzinga have a lot to offer on this discussion but i'll try to sum it up:
the real answer to the question is these states are Autodesk states: CA, GA, WI, WS, CO, IN, MA, ME, NH
here is why
Autodesk bought out CAiCE and Infrsoft/MOSS around the same time Bentley Acquired inroads and geopak, a huge misstep on Autodesks part because insodoing adobted those FEW states while Bentley or whatever it was at the time GOT THE REST.
these states may not have .dwg as the standard "format" but they were clearly Autodesk friendly...
CAiCE Visual Roads (3D) – CA, GA, WI, WS
Infrasoft/MOSS (3D endorsed by Autodesk) – CO, IN, MA, ME, NH
Mike seems to be a real bentley proponent, so how about a list of universities and trade schools with Microstation as part of the curriculumn and while you are at it, list the ones that require civil 3d. Also, how many hollywood companies use bentleys solution for movie productions....?
Here is an abbreviated version of the backstory on why Bentley, formerly IGDS, formerly, M & S Computing owns the DOT market. MDOT (Michigan) was the 2nd dot to M & S Computings IGDS system using a .dgn format developed on PDP mini-computers in the the 1970's... preceeding AutoCAD .dwg by 10yrs plus and a specific project forced them into a new solution and this was it.
MDOT success on that project made them the icon of the transportation community. By the late 1970’s, 6 DOT’s were using IGDS.
A cooperative formed by AASHTO hired by C.W. Beilfuss (and Associates) developed and distributed the FHWA funded Roadway Design System (RDS) governed by a Steering Committee of users. The RDS users funded the development of IGRDS combining engineering and IGDS. RDS/IGRDS licenses enabled states to justify acquisition of Intergraph Systems which included IGDS licenses at no additional cost
In the 80's As IGDS migrated to Microstation the free IGDS was replaced with a MicroStation license. AASHTO presented the issue to Intergraph. AASHTO discounted all licenses to all State DOT’s. This Public Private Partnership (P3) cemented the relationship and continued the growth of Microstation in the DOT community.
there were 3 reasons why AutoDESK even had a chance
1. Bentley was fighting with Integraph
2. DOT's realized they were pigeon holed
3. Bentley rested on their client base instead of seeing Autodesk as a threat... because Autodesk rejected Intergraph’s InRoads during the dispute with Bentley and could've re-written history. Instead, they absorbed Infrasoft/MOSS, failed, acquired CAiCE used by CALTRANS, failed, developed Civil 3D and modeled it after InRoads
Bentley is losing Market Share and will continue to lose market share as DOT's downsize and privatize their work. Autodesk is schooling them in the playground of primary, post secondary, and trade school education market share.
So Mike, hows the local resellers doing with your Bentley products? Or should I ask how many local resellers are there outside FL? And like was asked before how many local colleges and or high schools teach your Bentley products?
Training? What training? You either fly yourself to the Great C3D state of Florida or you beg your local DOT to let you in to one of their classes! Or you pay big bucks and have one of your lonely Bentley trainers fly in from FL.
Ask Eagle Point users what they are using now? Mike I have news for you that light at the end of the tunnel, is not what you think it is! Just ask an Eagle Point user!
"Run Forest Run"
Bill Neuhauser P.E.
Good Day Everyone,
Just in case we forgot, Mike works for Bentley. So it only makes since that he defends the products. I still believe they, Autodesk and Bentley (oops forgot Carlson again) keep each other honest!
Simple question for you? Just how much (MSRP) is for your software if you want to do the following design project?
2.) Underground Utilities. ie. layout and design
3.) Pond design
4.) Conceptual 3D. of both pre-design and post
5.) Initial Survey/TIN
6.) Final stake out of your design.
7.) Any iPad/droid apps for field use.
How many different Bentley softwares would be necessary to do all this? Initial MSRP and also yearly subscription.
And then how many weeks of training for each and the cost on a weekly basis for such training. And finally where would I have to go for all of this training?
Give me your final answer? Show me the moneyyyyyy
Bill Neuhauser P.E.
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