I am trying to figure out how many DOTs use AutoCAD, plain or C3D. It appears that almost all state DOTs are using Microstation to the point I am worried I am getting left behind using C3D exclusively. The problem is that Microstation with all the bells and whistles is very expensive even before talking about training costs and learning curve. I find that my private clients use AutoCAD products, but I am wondering about just the DOTs, federal, state, and local.
Autodesk is still the major impetus in Bentley development. While Bentley employees troll AutoDesk sites looking for ideas, and AutoDesk coders debug their product, and innovate....
Perhaps once Mike figures out "paperspace" in v9 or 10 or K, he can crow about that too. My office switched to v8i, so all the old-time usstation guys hate it - they have 20 years experience, but can't batch plot anymore. Experienced users of a program can no longer perform as noobs do - btw, they don't use the "new" accusnap featur from the mid-90's either.
Bentley has retarded progress by giving free softwar to DOT's, and done little to support their own product.
In Response to Tenative click
Your comment "Autodesk is still the major impetus in Bentley development"
Not sure why you believe that, as C3D resembles a combination of GEOPAK and InRoads.. and for innovation..my version of C3D still has a does prompt at the bottom
I dont undersatand the comment on Paper space... Microstaion Contains Sheet Models (paper space) and Design Models (Model Space)... only we can have unlimited number of both Sheet and design Models.
It is a sad fact that most users (Autodesk or Bentley) know a limited number of functions the software provides.
As for plotting... Batch plotting is done in print Organizer in the current releases... You do not want to compare plotting between MicroStation and Autodesk...Anyone who has worked with both will agree MicroStation has a serious edge.
Your comment on "Free Software" lacks merrit and is NOT true.
And lastly, I do not "troll" I simply am here to rebut misinformation... this type of misinformation concerning autodesk products does not occur in the Bentley user group.
Regards
Mike
mike.barkasi wrote:
and for innovation..my version of C3D still has a does prompt at the bottom
Are you talking about the Commnd line?
mike.barkasi wrote:
Your comment on "Free Software" lacks merrit and is NOT true.
While you may not believe it's true. I sit next to an Engineer who worked for the State DOT at the time all the FREE stuff was brought in. Not only software but the high end computers to run it on. He has no motive in making that up.
That doesn't make it a better or worse sotware. But it happened.
I personaly have very little experience with MS and the little I had was years ago. I'm sure it's ahead in some aspects and C3D is ahead in others. I'm glad Autodesk has competition. Without it either product might stagnate.
Allen
Allen Jessup
CAD Manager - Designer
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Still waiting for the answer to my question Mike? How many days of training in sunny Southern Florida? And how about the cost for onsite next day support of your product?
Bill Neuhauser P.E.
Bill
I work out of Exton PA, I havnt been to Florida to train except for FDOT. I do not know the costs for these services. In some cases sonsultants may be able to attend these sessions. I am very good at what I do, so I suspect that might effect the rate my time is billed at.
As for Allens post concerning comments from someone he knows regarding free software and free "high end" computers,... Please understand I work for Bentley Systems and am directly involved with the TLI segment. That is simply not true.
I have seen however the generosity Of the Bentleys when it comes to personal matters and the treatment of Collegues and there families.
Regards
Mike Barkasi
Bentley Systems
To the consultants (my peeps!):
Yup, Bentley does have a watered-down version of paperspace - sheet models do exist, introduced with v8 in 2004. And your CAD standards don't acknowledge this, as no one hasd no inkling what they are, or how to use them. The most senior, productive CAD techs in the company might name their levels, and the more adventurous might know how to pan without their shift and control keys, but most are using the inefficent features that MicroStation has made its foundation for two decades. So even the most experienced keep scaling the border, and throwing it onto the model, in view 1, the only view that will ever be used. And every time they "nudge" that border over a few feet, Print Organizer will hiccup, refusing to update, and requiring the file to be removed and reattached.
This is all in keeping with the CAD standards set up by the DOT clients you have. They want to see each dgn file have one view, either a model, or a sheet that calls in models, nothing else. They are too busy having maintenance truck and snowplow operators sit through Bentley training classes in the winter to consider how painstakingly inefficient the software package they have thrust upon you really is.
And before Mike points out my obvious disdain for his product - I think Bentley was very wise to adopt DirectX with their XM release. Having a $250 mainstream gamers card outperform a $1000 OpenGL model is very attractive, and perhaps with the next version, your marketing department will highlight this point.
I'm still rooting for Wisconsin (and more states) to open things up to competition.
TentativeClick:
Wisconsin allows design to be completed in Civil 3D.
See:
Ballen
Please get your facts correct. V8 w/ Sheet models (paper space) was released in 2000.
A user can choose to scale the sheet model up (allowing the sheet model to be geocoordinated) or scale the model down keeping the true paper size.
Print organizer if set up correctly will reconize the print boundary or sheet models. If you are having trouble contact me or support and we can walk you through the correct set up.
You mention "innefficient features" Im sure to someone using them they are efficient (IE: command line) (BTW 8 views have been in MicroStation for 25 years references or x refs over 10 years prior to DwG)
Organization wide standards are critical on large projects that may span over a decade, A product that is stable and highly customizable (IE MicroStation) Supports many workflows, one where the file format is constantly changing, forcing upgrades and requireing audits and purging to avoid corrupting etc does not.
In all the Training I have done for both DOTs and private engineering companies, I have not been aware of any Snow plow operators taking the class.
Not sure what to say about the video thing.. does it matter?
Mike Barkasi
Bentley Systems
Organization wide standards are critical on large projects that may span over a decade, A product that is stable and highly customizable (IE MicroStation) Supports many workflows, one where the file format is constantly changing, forcing upgrades and requireing audits and purging to avoid corrupting etc does not.
These are certainly valid points and a source of great annoyance to me using Civil 3D.....
neilyj (No connection with Autodesk other than using the products in the real world)
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Mike,
I'm sure what your said, within the confines of your statement, is true. I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of which particular company was doing what part in the road design packages at that time. If you say Bentley didn't give the hardware and software. I believe you. But someone did.
Don't take me wrong. It was a brilliant marketing strategy. Like Apple providing low cost or free computers to school systems. But as with most rumors, there will be some grain of truth somewhere.
I don't have any problem with Microstation and the other packages. People are free to use them as they wish. I'm a Civil 3D user and probably will be until I retire.
Allen
Allen Jessup
CAD Manager - Designer
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MikeB:
My facts are always strait. However, when you speak of effeciency maybe you should focus on reading. I didn't post anything about snow plow drivers, model/paper views, etc... you should direct your posts correctly.
For those that gripe about file format changes every few years:
2013 will bring a new file format. I personally believe that its only a matter of time until Civil 3D gets its own file format, maybe .c3d?
Here in Saskatchewan, Canada they use AutoCAD for drafting and CAiCE for designing. But are moving towards something else for designing. Probably Civil 3D.
New Mexico DOT is supposedly trying to switch to Civil 3D exclusively. We have worked with them in recent years where much of the work was done in Autodesk products and delivered (specifically for archiving) in the dgn format. Our company is private and only has 2 seats with Bently and maybe 15+ with Autodesk Civil Suite. I have no experience in Microstation so I can't really make a valid comparison but I am very impressed with the gains that Civil 3D has given me. I am also impressed with the ties between 3dsMax and Civil 3d since Dynamite VSP became Civil View.
In regards to NMDOT switching, I am sorry if this has been mentioned, when the flaming gets thick I tend to skip ahead.
Aaaahhh New Mexico, No it has not been mentioned because it hasnt happened.
Funny what a company (Autodesk) tries when noone else opens the door... in football they call it an end run.
But to be short New Mexico has not switched, and from what I understand they will not anytime soon.
Thats great Civil 3D can now "connect" to 3D studio. Maybe they (Autodesk) could simply put the rendering and annimation in the CAD engine like MicroStation does and offer it at NO extra cost.
Concerning saskatchewan, thats great to hear there switching from one Autodesk product to another. You may want to look into some other Canadian Provinces that are moving off Autodesk products.
Best Regards
Mike
A couple of points I thought I’d share:
Regards,
Peter Funk
Autodesk, Inc.
Peter,
can I ask that you guys start working VDOT soon. They and some of the rail work we've started getting are the only reason we have the Microstation stuff in our office. Then the only Bentley software we'd have in house is Water GEMS which is a nightmare by itself.
Oregon Department of Transportation is upgrading to the lastest version of the Bentley Product.....Might be a good time to investigate options / alternatives! Maybe Autodesk could help....PLEASE. In Oregon we have ZERO resources locally for Bentley products. Autodesk has 4 resellers and a local presence (although Mechanical, could grow, maybe?). Just food for thought!
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