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AutoCAD usage by DOTs

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Message 1 of 141
BWYarger
9686 Views, 140 Replies

AutoCAD usage by DOTs

I am trying to figure out how many DOTs use AutoCAD, plain or C3D.  It appears that almost all state DOTs are using Microstation to the point I am worried I am getting left behind using C3D exclusively.  The problem is that Microstation with all the bells and whistles is very expensive even before talking about training costs and learning curve.  I find that my private clients use AutoCAD products, but I am wondering about just the DOTs, federal, state, and local.

 

Brad
LT, C3D 2005 - 2024
Windows XP, Vista, 7, 10, 11
140 REPLIES 140
Message 41 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: mike.barkasi


@mike.barkasi wrote:

 

As for Infrastructure modeler... with SS3 I can create a better prilimanary design using the Civil design tools in virtually the same ammount of time - and the Rendering and annimation outputted would be the same quality as 3D studio...

 


Really? You think that a Bentley product can render as good as 3ds Max?  Does it have Mental Ray?  Can its renderer use caustics and physical based lighting?  Can it do lighting analysis?  Does it support other renderers like Vray?

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 42 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: Cadguru42

Bentley uses Luxology... for the anmation and rendering required for Civil Design microstations rendering is right on PAR. If your making disney movies, adding special effects, use something else...

 

The biggest bonus is there is NO extra cost... it is in MicroStation... Last I looked I couldnt play the 3dstudio annimation in civil3d, and I certainly could not play the annimation in a pdf

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIHVbixS7cg&feature=related

 

 

 

 

Message 43 of 141
Neilw_05
in reply to: Cadguru42

I don't know much about rendering but in case you were not aware of it, Bentley began integrating a Luxology rendering engine in Microstation about 2 yrs ago. Do you know how the Luxology rendering engine compares with 3DS Max? It may not do everything that can be done in 3DS max but it should be more than adequate for site models and it doesn't require any file conversion. I would think it is certainly superior to the rendering capabilities that come with Autocad.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 44 of 141
JamesMaeding
in reply to: billneu08

jumping in on this thread, but I see people comparing rather advanced features of C3D and Bentlet products, but the issues with C3D are much more fundamental.

For instance, the data sharing method of civil 3D is horrible. Xref of data limits what you can lebel via expressions, and dref of data is super cumbersome (no batch way to make drefs).

The bentley products have external databases which accomodate sharing easily.

 

How will the DOT crowd deal with that? I don;t see how productoin speeds can come close to a prog that uses an external database for data. Carlson and others use external databases too, only C3D is odd on this.

Dynamic behavior is not worth any such comproimise, you must have easy data sharing first.


internal protected virtual unsafe Human() : mostlyHarmless
I'm just here for the Shelties

Message 45 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: mike.barkasi


@mike.barkasi wrote:

Bentley uses Luxology... for the anmation and rendering required for Civil Design microstations rendering is right on PAR. If your making disney movies, adding special effects, use something else...

 

The biggest bonus is there is NO extra cost... it is in MicroStation... Last I looked I couldnt play the 3dstudio annimation in civil3d, and I certainly could not play the annimation in a pdf

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIHVbixS7cg&feature=related

 

 

 

 


What about the lighting analysis?  That is a very neat AEC feature that has a lot to do with site design in this post-apocolyptic world full of carbon that we're trying to spend billions of dollars "fixing".

 

As for the Disney line, I'm not talking about the modeling aspect of the software, I'm talking about the actual renderer.  From what I've read about modo, which I'm assuming is the same as what MS uses, it does have basic rendering features like textures, specular maps, ambiant occlusion, etc.  But from what I've seen, just using the default daylight settings for mental ray provides a much more realistic rendering, most likely because of the caustics and photon system as well as the daylight system.  I don't consider them on par at all.  I haven't even talked about Vray, which is a very good renderer also.

 

Also, who would watch the animation in the software that renders it?  The animation should be in a format that's easy to view to anyone, like Youtube or an AVI, which means the person(s) whom you're trying to convey the design to won't have the design software in the first place.  Your statement that you can't view the rendered animation in the software has no actual real world value.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 46 of 141
billneu08
in reply to: JamesMaeding

We have a saying around here: 'Consultants are in the business of making money, the DOTs are in the business of staying busy!"

 

So if Geopak/Inroad/Microstation was so great then that is all they would own! Otherwise why have both software's in house?

 

Also another quote! Misery loves company!

 

Personally I wish that all DOT's would just say use whatever you want to use, just send us the plans when you are done and they should look like this.....  when you buy a book or magazine do you really give a hoot on what software they used to create it?  Really why should it matter! If company A thinks they can do the job using Gepack and company B thnks they can do it in Civil 3D then great........ send me your bid and prove it! If you're the lowest bid and you can do it as per specs, then who cares what software was used????

 

Bill Neuhauser P.E.

 

 

 

Message 47 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: billneu08

Guys I'd love to keep talkin... but....

 

Bill in a way is right but he is short sighted, when he says we should be able to use what we want... Standards are key, and as I mentioned what good are they if after 5 yrs a program isnt supported.

 

As for lighting analysis... look into Hevacomp (Bentley owned), if your not happy with the solar lighting and shadows produced with MicroStation Luxology...

 

As for why view the annimation in a design package? if you have to ask you never modeled anything... its nice to run the animation in the same package your using to model ... that way any edits in the model can be made easily...

 

Youtube videos are cool but an intelligent 3D pdf with annimation where a user can stop the annimation change the display style, query the properties of the civil content... Now that is useful... all within adobe reader, installed on 99% of the of all computers.

 

I'll give you all last word

Message 48 of 141
billneu08
in reply to: mike.barkasi

Mike,

You ahve yet to answer my questions or at least the important one? How many weeks/months of training does it take to just design roads? Not even counting the two weeks to learn Microstations....... come on Mike tell us how many days in Florida is it going to take me to learn how to design roads? Don't forget all the stuff needed up to roads either! Your words......easy stuff!  HOW MANY WEEKS????

 

Message 49 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: billneu08

Bill

 

For you... email me (mike.barkasi) at bentley dot com,  and I will send you a video... you seem like a pretty bright guy... I would think within a week you could run roadway designer...and the really cool thing is you will love our Templates... and SS3 gets even easier.

 

Mike

 

Message 50 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: mike.barkasi


@mike.barkasi wrote:

Guys I'd love to keep talkin... but....

 

Bill in a way is right but he is short sighted, when he says we should be able to use what we want... Standards are key, and as I mentioned what good are they if after 5 yrs a program isnt supported.

 

As for lighting analysis... look into Hevacomp (Bentley owned), if your not happy with the solar lighting and shadows produced with MicroStation Luxology...

 

As for why view the annimation in a design package? if you have to ask you never modeled anything... its nice to run the animation in the same package your using to model ... that way any edits in the model can be made easily...

 

Youtube videos are cool but an intelligent 3D pdf with annimation where a user can stop the annimation change the display style, query the properties of the civil content... Now that is useful... all within adobe reader, installed on 99% of the of all computers.

 

I'll give you all last word


My degree is in digital media with an emphasis on visualization, so I know a thing or two about rendering and modeling and I don't appreciate being told that I've never modeled anything.  What I've been talking about is the renderer, which you completely ignore in your responses.  You keep going on about the animation in the software while I've been talking about the rendered output, which could be a still shot or an animation.  Even with 3ds Max and Civil 3D I can make a single export out of C3D  and it automatically shows up in 3ds Max, so again, your point is moot about being able to see the animation in the software.  What matters is the deliverables and the renders from MS cannot compare to 3ds Max.  They aren't bad, but they're no where near the quality that 3ds Max can do (or Maya for that matter).

 

Back to the topic:

Basically, what it boils down to is the fact that DOTs are slowly migrating away from Microstation toward Civil 3D while the private sector has mostly always been with Autodesk in the first place.  My boss has a sister that is an engineer for a company that just switched from Microstation with either Geopak or InRoads (can't remember which) to Civil 3D.  At first she hated it, but now she's a complete convert and says she'll never go back to Microstation.  If she can say that after using Microstation for over a decade, then that means something.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 51 of 141
billneu08
in reply to: mike.barkasi

Come on Mike, you are starting to remind me of a polititian during a debate! Simple question, how many weeks/months will a beginner need to spend in Florida learning how to design roads...... that includes, importing survey data, creating your EG surface, maybe showing an aerial or two, creating an alignment here and there, maybe one or two intersections, don't forget your FG profile, your template, then your sections, then your earthworks.......  HOW MANY DAYS WOULD IT TAKE A NEW STUDENT OUT OF school to learn this?  And just for the fun of it lets design the Storm Sewer while we are at it?

 

HOW MANY WEEKS OF REALLY EXPENSIVE TRAINING IS THIS???? But then again it is in sunny Florida! 😉

 

You've got us on on pins and needles??? Again your software is so easy to learn......your words not mine!

 

 

Message 52 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: Cadguru42

So how many roads have you modeled (engineered)?

Can you name one DOT that switched From a Bentley Civil to Civil3D?

 

So your boss,s sister thats an engineer for a company....your kidding me right?...

Message 53 of 141
Neilw_05
in reply to: Cadguru42

I'm sure you can find Ex Acad users who prefer Microstation as well. It's a rather subjective discussion. After using LDT since ver. 1.0 I had my first experience with Microstation in late summer of 2007 and am now using Power Civil v8i SS1 along with C3D 2012. I must say that overall I prefer Microstation over Autocad as a cad platform for several reasons which I won't go into here.

 

What I think deserves mention in this discussion is that the InRoads and Geopak that most users here are familiar with have been around for a long time and if you want to make comparisons it would be more fair to compare them with Land Desktop age wise.

 

Within the last 2 years or so Bentley has been gradually implementing their new Civil Platform technology which is eventually going to replace the older technology in use at this time. I have worked with it's earliest release and I must say it's quite impressive. I think the core technology behind it is fundamentally superior to Autodesk's approach with ARX technology and all the compatability issues that follow. In the current state of affairs it is easy to see that C3D has the advantage but that is comparing old technology to new.

Neil Wilson (a.k.a. neilw)
AEC Collection/C3D 2024, LDT 2004, Power Civil v8i SS1
WIN 10 64 PRO

http://www.sec-landmgt.com
Message 54 of 141
billneu08
in reply to: mike.barkasi

Still can't hear ya Mike?

 

Back in the early days how many years did it take a DOT to get all of the required Seed files and Criteria files made prior to doing their first design? Sorry new question, I should shut up and let you answer my last one first!  🙂

 

Here: I'll break it down for you and you just fill in the blanks:

 

Importing survey data:              ____ Days

Creating Surfaces:                   _____Days

Creating Alignements/Profile   _____Days

Creating criteria Files              _____Days

Creating the Road                   _____Days

Creating X-sections                 _____Days

Road Earthworks                     _____Days

Storm sewer layout                  _____Days

Storm Sewer Design               _____Days

 

 

I tried to check your website but looks like you must be a paid subscriber to get this data from your website now. Last time I saw something I belive most of this training was in 5 day chunks, and that was per subject.  Show me a link that tells us otherwise?  At 9 seperate classes at 5 days per class at x$ per day.....thats a lot of XXs.... and don't forget the numerous trips to Florida!

 

Again really easy stuff to learn!

 

Bill Neuhauser P.E.

 

Message 55 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: BWYarger

@Mike

I've designed around 10 road projects and 5 parking lots for the past 8 years if you must know. And no, I'm not kidding about my boss' sister. Her firm is in Sevier County TN and moved to Civil 3d from MS. I gave them our templates to get started.

I don't appreciate you insinuating that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm lying. You troll this group enough already.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 56 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: Cadguru42

I never thought you were lying...

 

 Neil said it best when he said, use by a specific user (a friend of a friend ect) is subjective...(IE : my 5 year old draws with MicroStation he started when he was 4).

 

Bills  arguement is also foolish... the length of time it takes to learn something depends on the student , the teacher, and the software... if cost is an issue just go to the dot website download the dataset and the guide... I think FREE beats his cost... if you want me your looking at a few bills (but I am well worth it 😉  )

 

I merely come on here and present technical facts and debate the propeganda Autodesk puts out... if your strongest arguement is everyone uses it (and this is your strongest argument, though not totally true), by that same thinking if everyone jumped off a cliff would you?

 

Reality is over the past 2 yrs Bentley has gained market share against Autodesk in the areas where we compete. Companies working on the largest infrastructure projeccts in the world rely on our software.

 

 

All the best

 

Mike

 

Message 57 of 141
Sinc
in reply to: mike.barkasi


@mike.barkasi wrote:

 

Can you name one DOT that switched From a Bentley Civil to Civil3D?

 



No, can't name one, but I can name Tennesse DOT, Florida DOT, Wisconsin DOT, Alaska DOT, Colorado DOT, Caltrans, and probably more...

Sinc
Message 58 of 141
mike.barkasi
in reply to: Sinc

Sync you are wrong. NOT ONE of those mentioned has switched from using a Bentley software.

 

(WisDOT Alaska and Caltrans all were standardized on Caice...) Florida- still cannot pass standards checker (as of early this yr)

Message 59 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: mike.barkasi


@mike.barkasi wrote:

Sync you are wrong. NOT ONE of those mentioned has switched from using a Bentley software.

 

(WisDOT Alaska and Caltrans all were standardized on Caice...) Florida- still cannot pass standards checker (as of early this yr)


None of them have completely switched, but they are in the process.  They can't just switch overnight, so don't try to sugar-coat the fact that they are in the process of leaving Bentley's products.

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM
Message 60 of 141
Cadguru42
in reply to: Cadguru42

  There's no disputing the fact that many DOTs are currently in the process of switching to Civil 3D, others are contemplating the switch, some are going to accept both, and some just aren't going to switch.

 

 

Edited by
Discussion_Admin

C3D 2022-2024
Windows 10 Pro
32GB RAM

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