AutoCAD and Window 8

[Stuart_Telford]

Hi Everyone,

We recently purchased Windows 8 here at my work and I installed it on a few machines only to learn that AutoCAd Civil 3D 2013 is not supported on that O.S. yet.  Thus, I had to downgrade back to Windows 7; are their any plans for a service pack to fix compatability issues or is 2014 going to be the first chance to use with Windows 8? Also, anyone know when 2014 is planned on being released?

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Stu

[rkmcswain]

IIRC, the AutoCAD 2014 announcement yesterday said that it was compatible with Win8.

I'm 99% sure they won't be going back and making 2013 or earlier versions work with it.

In the future, may I suggest checking the system requirements of the software you want to run and _then_ look into purchasing your hardware+O/S combo.

[Stuart_Telford]

Thanks...Yeah I didn't think about compatability issues (rookie mistake) but we have a subscription so as soon as Civil 3D 2014 is released we will just switch back over to 8 and run 2014.  Good to know about 2013 though and do you know a date when Civil 3D 2014 will be available?

[neilyj666]

just speculation but I'd guess towards the end of April

[Cadguru42]

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@stuuuman wrote:

Hi Everyone,

We recently purchased Windows 8 here at my work and I installed it on a few machines only to learn that AutoCAd Civil 3D 2013 is not supported on that O.S. yet.  Thus, I had to downgrade back to Windows 7; are their any plans for a service pack to fix compatability issues or is 2014 going to be the first chance to use with Windows 8? Also, anyone know when 2014 is planned on being released?

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Stu

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Why switch to Windows 8 in the first place? Even Autodesk has made 2014 recommended for Windows 7, not Windows 8. I've got Win8 at home and it's horrible to use for a desktop/workstation. Win8's UI is just not designed for use by a mouse. 

[lvthunder]

Some of us have touch screens.  I honestly believe Autodesk made the options in the command line clickable just for touch screens.

[HansSMS]

Got a Windows 8 pro upgrade when the $40 deal was still on, and put in on to a second partition. Been using it for private stuff (iTunes etc). I'm certainly not going to use it for work. Just shutting down the computer is a major effort, so is finding stuff without the start bar, like installing a printer or changing printer settings, in fact anything one gets up to in control panel.

I've ended up putting a mass of shortcuts on the desktop "app" to get going again.The start screen is difficult to configure.

Looking at it after using it for 3 months it is a step backwards on a normal computer without a touch screen. I think all non tablet or classic computers should not be sold with Windows 8. It's good for a tablet of phone with the usual bunch of "apps" that everyone ends up installing, but for serious software like AutoCAD I don't see the point. Even with a touch screen I can't ever see myself poking a stubby finger at the AutoCAD ribbon or toolbars or at the drawing, smudging the screen to get stuff done. The mouse still rules.

[lvthunder]

Just hit the Windows button and start typing part of the name of the program.  It generally finds it by the 3rd or 4th letter.  As for the Control Panel just hover to the lower left and when the button pops up right click.

Windows 8 is a huge change and with that change it's going to take a while to learn all the new tricks.

[Cadguru42]

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@lvthunder wrote:

Just hit the Windows button and start typing part of the name of the program.  It generally finds it by the 3rd or 4th letter.  As for the Control Panel just hover to the lower left and when the button pops up right click.

Windows 8 is a huge change and with that change it's going to take a while to learn all the new tricks.

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It's not just learning new tricks. That's not the point. The point is that Windows 8's UI is not intuitive and it's just not setup for using a mouse. Your own post proves it by saying that you have to use the keyboard in order to get to a program quickly. The new start menu doesn't even show all the installed programs like the old one does. You have to either click on "show all apps" in the bottom right corner, which is away from where you click to open the start menu in the first place, or open the charms bar, then click on search, then find it on the list that scrolls sideways instead of up-down. All that is fine for touch screens on a tablet or phone, but horrible for a workstation. 

Just Google "Windows 8 UI fail". You'll see the thousands of people who show how horrible the interface is. Anyone who has ever taken a UI design class knows how much of a failure Windows 8 is from a desktop/laptop point.

[lvthunder]

No it's you that doesn't get it.  The only reason the Windows 7 UI is intitive is because you've been using it since 1995.  Windows 8 is the first step towards the future where there isn't a mouse.  Remember Star Trek IV.  I bet in the next 5-7 years a mouse will be like having a floppy drive in your computer.  I bought a new touch screen laptop and I've got to say I find myself touching the screen to select things more often than grabbing the mouse or the touchpad.

To bing this discussion back to AutoCAD they could develop a Modern UI version of AutoCAD since "the big split" split the UI elements and the core just like Mozilla and Google are doing with web browsers.

[HansSMS]

The big problem with Windows 8 is that Micosoft has gone out of its way to hide basic functionalty, making the transition hard for users of earlier windows versions.

With the arival of the ribbon in AutoCAD a few releases back, I now watch users operate AutoCAD with a total mix of ribbon tools, toolbars, menus, commands and palettes. I wonder what's the point. Can't wait (NOT) for the next menu system to be added to further complicate the UI.

[neilyj666]

sometimes a command line shortcut is the fastest way to do something

[Mark_Castle]

I've been running Win 8 at home since last September. If you want a start menu like Win 7 it's very easy to add one back in. That's what I did. You can use Win 8 in desktop mode pretty much like Win 7 if you want and just ignore all that other stuff.

[Cadguru42]

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@lvthunder wrote:

No it's you that doesn't get it.  The only reason the Windows 7 UI is intitive is because you've been using it since 1995.  Windows 8 is the first step towards the future where there isn't a mouse.  Remember Star Trek IV.  I bet in the next 5-7 years a mouse will be like having a floppy drive in your computer.  I bought a new touch screen laptop and I've got to say I find myself touching the screen to select things more often than grabbing the mouse or the touchpad.

To bing this discussion back to AutoCAD they could develop a Modern UI version of AutoCAD since "the big split" split the UI elements and the core just like Mozilla and Google are doing with web browsers.

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I have a degree in digital media. I understand UI design & layout and Win8 fails in that regard for mouse use. Clicking on invisible corners to bring out thumbnails of what you're clicking, but not actually clicking on them in order to open them, is not good UI design. Making the user move the mouse across the entire screen constantly is not good UI design. For instance, move to the upper or lower right corner, then move the mouse slightly back out and toward the magnifying glass to get search. Type in the name of the program, and the results show up on the left side of the screen, away from your mouse. That's a great UI for a tablet with touch screen, horrible for mouse use.

Or how about no visual clues on how to close a modern UI app. I had to Google it because there are no buttons, no words, or anything indicating how to close a modern UI app. Windows 8 didn't even have a getting started tutorial to explain it. Having to move the cursor to the upper middle, click and drag the app downward is not intuitive and causes more strain on the hand than just moving to a corner and clicking a button to close. That method is great for a touch screen, but horrible for a mouse. Mixing the two is just plain horrible on Microsoft's part. 

You mentioned the touch on a laptop. That's great for those of you who do that. Millions of others use a workstation setup with multiple monitors. I don't want to have to move across 48" of screen space constantly just to get around the OS when everything before was in one place. What makes a great UI is how to let the user achieve what they want in the most efficient and quickest manner. Look at Google's homepage. It's simple as hell without all the added bloat like Bing and Yahoo! have. That's good UI design. Holding my hands up to 48" of screen space to use a program for eight hours or more a day does not achieve that. 

These don't seem like such a big deal, but doing this constantly for eight hours a day will wear you out and you'll lose any of the productivity gains that MS made with the speed of Win8. 

And before you think I am just some old fuddy duddy that doesn't like anything new, I even got Vista on the day it came out and never had any issues like others. I've always been one to use something new, provided is actually increases my production or some other benefit. Windows 8 does neither, at least not yet. If Microsoft tweaks the UI for desktop use it'll become a great OS. Until then, it's just a terrible meshing of touch and mouse use. 

[lvthunder]

Who says we will alwas keep our screens out in front of us?  If I had a huge touch screen I would put it at an angle like people used to do hand drafting before AutoCAD came out.  You didn't hear them complain that drawing with a pencil and pen made their arms tired.

With Windows 8 Microsoft is heading towards the future.  The only thing comparable to this was the jump from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95.  Microsoft is looking at the sucess of the tablets and the problems that PC makers are having selling new PC's.

[shunter62]

I beg to differ about your remark that board drafter's arms never were tired. As a former drafter, I often was exhausted at the end of the day because of the awkward position of those dumb, almost flat, drafting boards. I'm short, and it was very hard to reach all the way across to the top of a drawing and do a proper, clean drawing. The best drafting board I ever had could be tilted up like an artist's easel and raised and lowered in a vertical plane. I could stand up to draw.

I will also bet you never struggled with a giant digitizing board, either.

I was very happy when I could finally have good posture (seated) and use a mouse to "project" my linework to a screen that was properly positioned for my eyesight.

Also, touch screens are always smudged and smeary. Some of us like having clean screens (or mylar) without fingerprints.

Kindest regards,

Susan H

[lvthunder]

So you clean the screen a couple times a day.  It's not that hard.  I'm not completely on board with this, but if you look around that is the trend that everything is going.  Even the new Canon dSLR has a multitouch touch screen on the back of the camera.

If I were in the PC industry I would want the mouse gone ASAP.  It causes carpeltunnel.  When do you think the first class action lawsuit is going to happen because of it.  Touch is a lot more natural than moving this device on your desk that moves an arrow on your screen.  Plus who wouldn't want to burn more caleries while they work.

[shunter62]

I challenge you to do 40 hours or more a week on a drafting board. Your pen or pencil needs to remain vertical in order to maintain clean, regular lineweights and sharp corners. Don't drag your arms and elbows over your work. Lettering needs a consistent slant and height to conform to the drafting standards, meaning it can't go "uphill" or "downhill" either. All erasures must be complete, without eraser crumbs and smudges. Standing at a drafting board involves strange twisting motions and cramped hands in order to reach the corners of a drawing that is taped into one place (no zooming or panning). Exercise it is not-just unbalanced posture all day long. You will develop a huge callus on your middle finger from holding a pencil all day-actually, after a week you will still only have sore fingers. Don't drop ink from a leaky pen on your drawing. I only got to use that nice, vertical board for a year as no other company would ever get one for me.

In other words, would you change this way of producing drawings for a quick, neat interface? I did, as soon as I could. I started doing CAD in the mid-1980's and I am still alive and functioning well.

I have a modern mouse and work station & have no wrist issues from using them. I agree that early mice were badly designed, but good mouse design has been in place for quite a while now. I have a couple of mice that fit my hand, and work on many type of surfaces.

I clean my screens (laptop, phone, glasses, workstation) several times a day. That's tedious too. Touchscreens still are smeary.

My point is that good ergonomic design promotes better engineering or graphic design. Not everyone draws or writes the same way and a good interface is one that suits the operator. That's why some people like I-phones and some like Blackberries, some like HP calculators and some like the other kinds (=).

Cheers,

Susan

[shunter62]

P.S., Please go read Edward Tufte's books and online discussions. I recommend "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" to start. It's probably at your local library. There are wonderful discourses on interface design.

S

[Stuart_Telford]

If you are still not liking the Windows 8 UI, there are programs (like we are running) that mod it to look and feel just like windows 7. Google Start8 and download it...I think you will be quite pleased. Cause beyond the UI, Windows 8 is much faster and secure than 7. Happy computing!

Stu