Alignments for curb returns

Anonymous · ‎02-09-2007

I am used to modeling curb returns with 3D polylines in LDT. From what I
have seen wtih C3D, I will need to create alignments and profiles and
assemblies to model curb returns. When a site has numerous intersections
this could lead to having to manage perhaps 100 alignments and profiles for
the curb returns alone. Is this really what most of you are doing, or is
there a simpler alternative?

dana.probert · ‎02-10-2007

hmmm I don't put vertical curves in my curb profiles... I think that was someone else.

The motivation for me to use profiles is so that I can build a corridor which i find personally easier than using feature lines.

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure

Anonymous · ‎02-10-2007

I thought I saw in one of the links you posted that you were using vertical
curves but I must be mistaken. In any case I hope I wasn't sounding
judgemental or critical of your way of doing things. My motive for raising
these questions was out of concern that there was some common industry
practice of putting vertical curves in curb returns based on comments by
different posters over the years, but the more I dig into it the more it
seems to be a matter of preference for getting the job done than a matter of
design requirements.

With that I'll let the topic go to rest!

dana.probert · ‎02-10-2007

so many municipalities have different ways of doing things..... i wouldnt be surprised if some required them for sure. the more i hang around the more i think there is no such thing as industry standard.... someone always comes to me with a different standard that seems alien just when i think i have it all figured out 🙂

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure

Anonymous · ‎02-10-2007

Hi Neil,

Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
plotted.

As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
discussion would not arise here.

To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
individual item.

It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
profiles on the 'convention' that the kerb profile is at the correct
chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.

In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
points on the kerb return in plan and these and common sense on the
construction site generally control what gets built.

I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
tangent points for the side entry pits.

Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.

On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
Label style using the alignment description rather than name, as it is easy
to modify the description manually.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482491@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

One question I have considered when using alignments and profiles for curb
returns is how do you name curb return alignments to correspond with road
alignments. If you use road alignment names for the curb alignments, what
happens when the road alignment names need to be changed? Do you have to
rename all the curb return alignments as well, or do you have a strategy
that allows for alignment name changes without having to rename the curb
returns?

Also, how do you convey the curb return profile data to the construction
plans? Do you provide curb profiles on seperate sheets or do you have a way
to include them in the road profile drawings?

Thanks for your replies.

wrote in message
news:5482272@discussion.autodesk.com...
for the type of plans that I work on, i found getting used to using
alignments and profiles to be pretty difficult, but once i had tried it a
few times it is now second nature and gives me more vertical visualization
on the curbs... i like seeing the profile.

yes, there is bit of bookkeeping, but we've worked out some naming
conventions and labels that help me keep track of what is going on.

However, using feature lines is just as good of a solution and perhaps even
better depending on what your goals and design constraints are.

For some ideas on how you might work this into your workflow, we've written
a few articles you might want to check out...

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/02/curb-profiles-the-next-generation/
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/01/road-design-notes-june-2004-vs-january-2007/

And for an intersection sample drawing and some information:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/11/another-intersection-sample-drawing/

good luck!

Dana
http://www.civil3d.com

Anonymous · ‎02-10-2007

Hi Dana,

While you can get away with that in flat country, if you start designing
straight grade between Kerb IPs in steeper country (and it gets built to
your design) you will end up with an ugly unacceptable intersection.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com
wrote in message
news:5482551@discussion.autodesk.com...
hmmm I don't put vertical curves in my curb profiles... I think that was
someone else.

The motivation for me to use profiles is so that I can build a corridor
which i find personally easier than using feature lines. Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

dana.probert · ‎02-10-2007

good thing coastal Delaware is flat then.

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure

dana.probert · ‎02-10-2007

ah i realize what you were looking at. Matt, our guest poster on Civil 3D wrote the article with the vertical curves. He and his clients work in British Columbia, which is a trite bit hillier than down here in the sand flats. Maybe Matt can help in this thread...

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure

Anonymous · ‎02-10-2007

Laurie,

I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are not
typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along the
length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
with straight grades in varying slope situations.

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
plotted.

As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
discussion would not arise here.

To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
individual item.

It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
rb profile is at the correct
chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.

In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
points on the kerb return in plan and th
ese and common sense on the
construction site generally control what gets built.

I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
tangent points for the side e
ntry pits.

Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.

On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
Label style using the alignment description rather than na
me, as it is easy
to modify the description manually.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482491@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

One question I have considered when using alignments and profiles for curb
returns is how do you name curb return alignments to correspond with road
alignments. If you use road alignment names for the curb alignments, what
happens when the road alignment name
s need to be changed? Do you have to
rename all the curb return alignments as well, or do you have a strategy
that allows for alignment name changes without having to rename the curb
returns?

Also, how do you convey the curb return profile data to the construction
plans? Do you provide curb profiles on seperate sheets or do you have a way
to include them in the road profile drawings?

Thanks for your replies.

wrote in message
news:5482272@discussion.autodesk.com...
for
the type of plans that I work on, i found getting used to using
alignments and profiles to be pretty difficult, but once i had tried it a
few times it is now second nature and gives me more vertical visualization
on the curbs... i like seeing the profile.

yes, there is bit of bookkeeping, but we've worked out some naming
conventions and labels that help me keep track of what is going on.

However, using feature lines is just as good of a solution and perhaps even
better depending on what your go
als and design constraints are.

For some ideas on how you might work this into your workflow, we've written
a few articles you might want to check out...

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/02/curb-profiles-the-next-generation/
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/01/road-design-notes-june-2004-vs-january-2007/

And for an intersection sample drawing and some information:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/11/another-intersection-sample-drawing/

good luck!

Dana
http://www.civ
il3d.com

Anonymous · ‎02-11-2007

Anonymous · ‎02-11-2007

actually, you would not want things done in plan only, mistakes would be missed.

neilw
|>Laurie,
|>
|>I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
|>breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
|>profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are not
|>typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along the
|>length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
|>mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
|>for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
|>developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
|>scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
|>with straight grades in varying slope situations.
|>
|>"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
|>news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
|>Hi Neil,
|>
|>Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
|>Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
|>plotted.
|>
|>As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
|>discussion would not arise here.
|>
|>To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
|>individual item.
|>
|>It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
|>profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
|>rb profile is at the correct
|>chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
|>meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
|>location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
|>chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
|>appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.
|>
|>In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
|>points on the kerb return in plan and th
|>ese and common sense on the
|>construction site generally control what gets built.
|>
|>I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
|>make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
|>design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
|>handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
|>junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
|>tangent points for the side e
|>ntry pits.
|>
|>Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
|>alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
|>anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.
|>
|>On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
|>adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
|>renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
|>Label style using the alignment description rather than na
|>me, as it is easy
|>to modify the description manually.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

Dana,
How do you create your alignments for curb returns and parking lots, do you
convert a polyline with fillets in it, or do you add curves? I'm only
asking because I relized the other day that if you convert a polyline with
fillets in it no PI's are added at the curves. Therefore you can't easily
move the aligment configuration. I had to redo a corridor and all of its
alignments profiles because a road changed some.

Thanks-
--
JOHN
C3D 2007, SP3

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

We certainly don't want them to miss any mistakes!

"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5483081@discussion.autodesk.com...
actually, you would not want things done in plan only, mistakes would be
missed.

neilw
|>Laurie,
|>
|>I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
|>breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
|>profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are
not
|>typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along
the
|>length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
|>mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
|>for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
|>developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
|>scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
|>with straight grades in varying slope situations.
|>
|>"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
|>news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
|>Hi Neil,
|>
|>Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
|>Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile
and
|>plotted.
|>
|>As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
|>discussion would not arise here.
|>
|>To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
|>individual item.
|>
|>It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
|>profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
|>rb profile is at the correct
|>chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
|>meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
|>location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
|>chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
|>appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.
|>
|>In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
|>points on the kerb return in plan and th
|>ese and common sense on the
|>construction site generally control what gets built.
|>
|>I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
|>make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps
road
|>design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
|>handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
|>junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
|>tangent points for the side e
|>ntry pits.
|>
|>Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
|>alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
|>anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.
|>
|>On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
|>adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb
be
|>renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
|>Label style using the alignment description rather than na
|>me, as it is easy
|>to modify the description manually.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

dana.probert · ‎02-12-2007

it is a rare thing that I use the convert pline to aligment tool

Dana Probert, P.E.
Technical Marketing Manager, Civil Engineering
Autodesk
Blog: BIM on the Rocks
Learn More About BIM for Infrastructure

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

Hi Neil,

Designing a road without some sort of software in not hard work, but it is
boring and repetitive. That's why as an industry we adopted computers to
design roads fairly near as soon as we knew computers existed.

Even now, as far as I'm aware with about 6% of the USA population, we still
have more Australian Road Design programs than seem to have been developed
in the USA.

The fact that Autodesk haven't as yet provided all the tools needed to
design an intersection with minimum work and which doesn't require long
discussions here and on the various Civil 3D blogs, doesn't mean that it
shouldn't be done with a single menu call and some default settings as our
products do.

Computing a "few grade breaks" based on some airy fairy imagined idea to get
an approximation is ludicrous when the computer can do it properly with a
reasonable theoretical model with less user input or thinking by the user.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com
"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482707@discussion.autodesk.com...
Laurie,

I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are not
typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along the
length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
with straight grades in varying slope situations.

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
plotted.

As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
discussion would not arise here.

To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
individual item.

It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
rb profile is at the correct
chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.

In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
points on the kerb return in plan and th
ese and common sense on the
construction site generally control what gets built.

I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
tangent points for the side e
ntry pits.

Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.

On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
Label style using the alignment description rather than na
me, as it is easy
to modify the description manually.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482491@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

One question I have considered when using alignments and profiles for curb
returns is how do you name curb return alignments to correspond with road
alignments. If you use road alignment names for the curb alignments, what
happens when the road alignment name
s need to be changed? Do you have to
rename all the curb return alignments as well, or do you have a strategy
that allows for alignment name changes without having to rename the curb
returns?

Also, how do you convey the curb return profile data to the construction
plans? Do you provide curb profiles on seperate sheets or do you have a way
to include them in the road profile drawings?

Thanks for your replies.

wrote in message
news:5482272@discussion.autodesk.com...
for
the type of plans that I work on, i found getting used to using
alignments and profiles to be pretty difficult, but once i had tried it a
few times it is now second nature and gives me more vertical visualization
on the curbs... i like seeing the profile.

yes, there is bit of bookkeeping, but we've worked out some naming
conventions and labels that help me keep track of what is going on.

However, using feature lines is just as good of a solution and perhaps even
better depending on what your go
als and design constraints are.

For some ideas on how you might work this into your workflow, we've written
a few articles you might want to check out...

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/02/curb-profiles-the-next-generation/
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/01/road-design-notes-june-2004-vs-january-2007/

And for an intersection sample drawing and some information:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/11/another-intersection-sample-drawing/

good luck!

Dana
http://www.civ
il3d.com

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

snip>the more i hang around the more i think there is no such thing as
industry standard....
That's because any type "boundary" betwixt the jurisdictions/agencies can
provide the impetus to enable the agencies to differ. Such as I-5 between
Eugene and Springfield, OR for instance; only three lanes of traffic in the
Northbound and Southbound directions of I-5 separate them. And their
Standard Drawing are similar, but "different".

And different from Lane County which surrounds them both.

People's thought processes are what drive the decisions for regional
standards.

And those "regions" have quite a distinction for range in size folks.

Or so I've noticed over the years.

Just a few thoughts along these lines - for further contemplation. 😉

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop 🙂 !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".

wrote in message
news:5482593@discussion.autodesk.com...
so many municipalities have different ways of doing things..... i wouldnt be
surprised if some required them for sure. the more i hang around the more i
think there is no such thing as industry standard.... someone always comes
to me with a different standard that seems alien just when i think i have it
all figured out 🙂

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

Or "make" any mistrakes either. 😉

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop 🙂 !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5483374@discussion.autodesk.com...
We certainly don't want them to miss any mistakes!

"James Maeding" wrote in message
news:5483081@discussion.autodesk.com...
actually, you would not want things done in plan only, mistakes would be
missed.

neilw
|>Laurie,
|>
|>I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
|>breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
|>profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are
not
|>typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along
the
|>length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
|>mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
|>for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
|>developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
|>scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
|>with straight grades in varying slope situations.
|>
|>"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
|>news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
|>Hi Neil,
|>
|>Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
|>Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile
and
|>plotted.
|>
|>As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
|>discussion would not arise here.
|>
|>To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
|>individual item.
|>
|>It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
|>profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
|>rb profile is at the correct
|>chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
|>meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
|>location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
|>chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
|>appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.
|>
|>In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
|>points on the kerb return in plan and th
|>ese and common sense on the
|>construction site generally control what gets built.
|>
|>I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
|>make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps
road
|>design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
|>handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
|>junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
|>tangent points for the side e
|>ntry pits.
|>
|>Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
|>alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
|>anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.
|>
|>On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
|>adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb
be
|>renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
|>Label style using the alignment description rather than na
|>me, as it is easy
|>to modify the description manually.
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

Anonymous · ‎02-12-2007

Of all the wishes I could request, having a tool to automate intersections
would be #1 on my list followed by automated sheet layouts (I'm sure we'd
all love to have Advanced Road Design!).

My comment about putting a few grade breaks along the curb return was more
along the lines of avoiding to have to provide profiles in the construction
drawings. A few grade breaks shown in plan view could negate the need to
provide curb profiles which would save allot of piddling for the drafters
and reduce the number of plan sheets significantly. It makes one wonder
whether those who mandate curb return profiles for construction documents
realize the impact such requirements have on the documentation process.

I did a crude anylsis of a curb return where the intersecting roads had a
20% gradient differential (10% in and 10% out). For a 25' radius curb return
with both ends ending at the same elevation the closest nominal vertical
curve was 30' long (total curb length approx 39'). The difference in
elevation at the mid point betweeen a straight grade transition vs. a 30'
vertical curve was just over 12 inches. This would be a rather worst case
scenario. A simple grade break or 2 along the curb return could easily
satisfy the differential if desired. I am not saying a vertical curve design
is not warranted, but considering all the overhead in conveying the design
to the construction documents is it really necessay?

I know how it is to manually draw cross sections on the drafting board and
computing quantities with a planimeter. No one in their right mind would
want to go back to doing things that way! The current technology is capable
of handling this tedious process. Why are we still having to spends DAYS of
tedium to do it manually?

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5483950@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Designing a road without some sort of software in not hard work, but it is
boring and repetitive. That's why as an industry we adopted computers to
design roads fairly near as soon as we knew computers existed.

Even now, as far as I'm aware with about 6% of the USA population, we still
have more Australian Road Design programs than seem to have been developed
in the USA.

The fact that Autodesk haven't as yet provided all the tools needed to
design an intersection with minimum work and which doesn't require long
discussions here and on the various Civil 3D blogs, doesn't mean that it
shouldn't be done with a single menu call and some default settings as our
products do.

Computing a "few grade breaks" based on some airy fairy imagined idea to get
an approximation is ludicrous when the computer can do it properly with a
reasonable theoretical model with less user input or thinking by the user.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com
"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482707@discussion.autodesk.com...
Laurie,

I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are not
typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along the
length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
with straight grades in varying slope situations.

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
plotted.

As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
discussion would not arise here.

To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
individual item.

It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
rb profile is at the correct
chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.

In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
points on the kerb return in plan and th
ese and common sense on the
construction site generally control what gets built.

I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
tangent points for the side e
ntry pits.

Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.

On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
Label style using the alignment description rather than na
me, as it is easy
to modify the description manually.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482491@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

One question I have considered when using alignments and profiles for curb
returns is how do you name curb return alignments to correspond with road
alignments. If you use road alignment names for the curb alignments, what
happens when the road alignment name
s need to be changed? Do you have to
rename all the curb return alignments as well, or do you have a strategy
that allows for alignment name changes without having to rename the curb
returns?

Also, how do you convey the curb return profile data to the construction
plans? Do you provide curb profiles on seperate sheets or do you have a way
to include them in the road profile drawings?

Thanks for your replies.

wrote in message
news:5482272@discussion.autodesk.com...
for
the type of plans that I work on, i found getting used to using
alignments and profiles to be pretty difficult, but once i had tried it a
few times it is now second nature and gives me more vertical visualization
on the curbs... i like seeing the profile.

yes, there is bit of bookkeeping, but we've worked out some naming
conventions and labels that help me keep track of what is going on.

However, using feature lines is just as good of a solution and perhaps even
better depending on what your go
als and design constraints are.

For some ideas on how you might work this into your workflow, we've written
a few articles you might want to check out...

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/02/curb-profiles-the-next-generation/
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/01/road-design-notes-june-2004-vs-january-2007/

And for an intersection sample drawing and some information:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/11/another-intersection-sample-drawing/

good luck!

Dana
http://www.civ
il3d.com

Anonymous · ‎02-13-2007

snip>It makes one wonder whether those who mandate curb return profiles for
construction documents realize the impact such requirements have on the
documentation process.
I would say that the Reviewing Agencies aren't all that concerned over
documentation Neil, but rather the design review of the Construction Plans -
which form the "reasonable and proper" basis for the General Contractors. I
was always told that "birdbaths" at intersections are a bad thing.
Especially in the areas adversely affected by Winter driving conditions.

And I still get to see them, even on recent construction projects - in all
the areas I visited.

Besides the Agencies I mentioned sometimes get to increase their fees, if
they can add more sheets to the plan set. 😉

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." 😮
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop 🙂 !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5484483@discussion.autodesk.com...
Of all the wishes I could request, having a tool to automate intersections
would be #1 on my list followed by automated sheet layouts (I'm sure we'd
all love to have Advanced Road Design!).

My comment about putting a few grade breaks along the curb return was more
along the lines of avoiding to have to provide profiles in the construction
drawings. A few grade breaks shown in plan view could negate the need to
provide curb profiles which would save allot of piddling for the drafters
and reduce the number of plan sheets significantly. It makes one wonder
whether those who mandate curb return profiles for construction documents
realize the impact such requirements have on the documentation process.

I did a crude anylsis of a curb return where the intersecting roads had a
20% gradient differential (10% in and 10% out). For a 25' radius curb return
with both ends ending at the same elevation the closest nominal vertical
curve was 30' long (total curb length approx 39'). The difference in
elevation at the mid point betweeen a straight grade transition vs. a 30'
vertical curve was just over 12 inches. This would be a rather worst case
scenario. A simple grade break or 2 along the curb return could easily
satisfy the differential if desired. I am not saying a vertical curve design
is not warranted, but considering all the overhead in conveying the design
to the construction documents is it really necessay?

I know how it is to manually draw cross sections on the drafting board and
computing quantities with a planimeter. No one in their right mind would
want to go back to doing things that way! The current technology is capable
of handling this tedious process. Why are we still having to spends DAYS of
tedium to do it manually?

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5483950@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Designing a road without some sort of software in not hard work, but it is
boring and repetitive. That's why as an industry we adopted computers to
design roads fairly near as soon as we knew computers existed.

Even now, as far as I'm aware with about 6% of the USA population, we still
have more Australian Road Design programs than seem to have been developed
in the USA.

The fact that Autodesk haven't as yet provided all the tools needed to
design an intersection with minimum work and which doesn't require long
discussions here and on the various Civil 3D blogs, doesn't mean that it
shouldn't be done with a single menu call and some default settings as our
products do.

Computing a "few grade breaks" based on some airy fairy imagined idea to get
an approximation is ludicrous when the computer can do it properly with a
reasonable theoretical model with less user input or thinking by the user.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com
"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482707@discussion.autodesk.com...
Laurie,

I wonder why you could not get by with just providing a series of grade
breaks in plan view along the curb rather than a providing all those
profiles in your construction documents. After all the curb returns are not
typically much more than 50 feet in length and a few grade breaks along the
length would give a very close proximation of a curve. Of course if it is
mandated and expected in Autralia you don't have any choice. It just makes
for allot of work without some type of automation such as you have
developed. Your point is well taken about taking into account steep grade
scenarios. I will have to do some analysis on my own to see what happens
with straight grades in varying slope situations.

"Laurie Comerford" wrote in message
news:5482567@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Neil,

Firstly, let me state that in Australia the industry conventions and
Authority requirements as such that kerb returns are designed in profile and
plotted.

As such the confusion as to why, what, how and whether expressed in this
discussion would not arise here.

To be adequately documented, each kerb alignment must be plotted as an
individual item.

It is common to also plot, but with no labelling, the profile on the road
profiles on the 'convention' that the ke
rb profile is at the correct
chainage and grade at the TP, but owing to the difficulty of assigning
meaning to the road chainages with respect to distances along the kerb
location, the rest of the plot is shown to the kerb grade with incorrect
chainages on the road profile. The attached sketch shows a general
appearance with the red line being the kerb profile.

In addition construction plans commonly provide spot levels at the quarter
points on the kerb return in plan and th
ese and common sense on the
construction site generally control what gets built.

I expect the community expectation here provided the strong incentive to
make this type of process fully automated, and this is why all CADApps road
design software does just that. The only issue for the designer is how to
handle the design on a return where two steep grades lead into the road
junction and the low point on the kerb cannot easily be created at the
tangent points for the side e
ntry pits.

Alignment names are generally created by software from the approach
alignment names and the departure alignment names in order of proceeding
anti-clockwise (turning left) around the kerb.

On the construction drawing it is essential that the return profile be
adequately named and changes in road alignment names imply that the kerb be
renamed in the drawing.. This is probably most easily done by creating a
Label style using the alignment description rather than na
me, as it is easy
to modify the description manually.

--

Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au
www.civil3Dtools.com

"neilw" wrote in message
news:5482491@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Dana,

One question I have considered when using alignments and profiles for curb
returns is how do you name curb return alignments to correspond with road
alignments. If you use road alignment names for the curb alignments, what
happens when the road alignment name
s need to be changed? Do you have to
rename all the curb return alignments as well, or do you have a strategy
that allows for alignment name changes without having to rename the curb
returns?

Also, how do you convey the curb return profile data to the construction
plans? Do you provide curb profiles on seperate sheets or do you have a way
to include them in the road profile drawings?

Thanks for your replies.

wrote in message
news:5482272@discussion.autodesk.com...
for
the type of plans that I work on, i found getting used to using
alignments and profiles to be pretty difficult, but once i had tried it a
few times it is now second nature and gives me more vertical visualization
on the curbs... i like seeing the profile.

yes, there is bit of bookkeeping, but we've worked out some naming
conventions and labels that help me keep track of what is going on.

However, using feature lines is just as good of a solution and perhaps even
better depending on what your go
als and design constraints are.

For some ideas on how you might work this into your workflow, we've written
a few articles you might want to check out...

http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/02/curb-profiles-the-next-generation/
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/01/road-design-notes-june-2004-vs-january-2007/

And for an intersection sample drawing and some information:
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2006/11/another-intersection-sample-drawing/

good luck!

Dana
http://www.civ
il3d.com

Anonymous · ‎02-13-2007

wow, what is the norm for you? I tend to lay things out with graphics, then do alignments, just curious.

Dana Breig Probert <>
|>it is a rare thing that I use the convert pline to aligment tool
James Maeding
Civil Engineer and Programmer
jmaeding - athunsaker - com

T_Bernhard · ‎02-13-2007

So do I, but because of the historical difficulties with creating C3D objects from polylines I still trace the ACAD objects using the Layout Tools. It also gives me more flexibility if I need to change curve radii, length, PI or PVI position, etc. later in the project.

Trevor

Alignments for curb returns

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