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2013 Dynamic North Arrow Rotation Issue

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Message 1 of 38
klugb
10852 Views, 37 Replies

2013 Dynamic North Arrow Rotation Issue

Ok, I'm stumped. I am using the Dynamic North arrow that is linked to the viewport. It doesn't matter if I use an OOTB block or a custom one they all have a rotation of 355.4016. 

The viewport is type "Plan", Dview twist is set to "0", USC is World.

If I change the rotation on the block it rotates the viewport (as expected).

 

The default block is not rotated. Any suggestions?

 

BTW, It works fin in the default NCS, so it's something in my template.

 

Bruce Klug, P.E.
AutoCAD Expert Elite Alumni
AutoCAD Civil 3D Certified Professional
Civil 3D 2023.2.1

Win 10 Enterprise, 64-bit
37 REPLIES 37
Message 21 of 38
christian
in reply to: C3D_TomR

This does not remove the coordinate systems from your drawing(dwt). It just removes the association of the True north being repersented on the north arrow and navcube.

 

The already placed NA's can be reset after you remove the GEO if needed. The Navcube can be turned of in the template file and if you don't use the auto north arrows, no one even knows it is rotated slightly. You cna even set them to remove the north rotation and be straight up, but when you do it rotates the viewport.

 

I have even cheated and placed the associated NA on a no plot layer and had a plotted NA that is not associated with the viewport. SO one noplot controls the rotation, one is plotted. ANother reason for this is the plotted NA is a custom one, and when I tried for a few minutes to make it a smart one it gave me issues. I'm always pressed for time, it is on th elist to revisit in the future.

Message 22 of 38
christian
in reply to: christian

I was wrong about resetting the NA it still rotates the viewprt. I forgot, I bring it in again after the GEO removal.

Message 23 of 38
C3D_TomR
in reply to: christian

I had similar issues trying to use our standard north arrow. It has a north arrow assigned to a rotation parameter. The north arrow rotates inside of a box with text. I like your idea of having the dynamic one on a no-plot layer for a visual notification of a major change in the viewport.

 

See what happens if you follow this scenario.:

 

  1. New drawing from the Imperial NCS template.
  2. Set coord system to TX83-CF.
  3. Type GEO then enter, remove the geographic location, Yes.
  4. Verify that the coord system is still set to TX83-CF then OK.
  5. Go to Layout1.
  6. Mview, draw a rectangular viewport.
  7. Double click inside the viewport then draw a square.
  8. Verify that the coord system is still set to TX83-CF then OK.
  9. Double click outside of the viewport to make paperspace current.
  10. Place a dynamic north arrow #13 in the drawing associated to the viewport you created.
  11. Zoom into the arrow location and verify that it points north as expected. Mine north arrow at this point is rotated.
  12. Delete the north arrow.
  13. Double click inside the viewport again to access modelspace.
  14. Type GEO then enter, remove the geographic location, Yes.
  15. Double click outside the viewport to make paperspace current.
  16. Verify that the coord system is still set to TX83-CF then OK.
  17. Place a new dynamic north arrow #13 associated to the existing viewport.
  18. Select the north arrow and change the x, y, and z scale in the properties palette to 20.
  19. The north arrow looks rotated at this point.
  20. Verify the coord system settingis still set to TX83-CF then OK.

At this point what I'm seeing is that everytime I check the Units and Zone tab and choose OK, the geographic location gets reset. So let's set it then continue without OK.

 

  1. Remove any existing dynamic north arrows.
  2. Double click inside the viewport again to access modelspace.
  3. Type GEO then enter, remove the geographic location, Yes.
  4. Double click outside the viewprot to make paperspace current.
  5. Place a new dynamic north arrow #13 associated to teh existing viewport.
  6. Select the north arrow and change the x, y, and z scale in the properties palette to 20.
  7. The north arrow looks correct.
  8. Draw a polyline using F8 to enable ortho after picking the first point.
  9. Select the polyline and rotate it 45 degrees around the south endpoint.
  10. Now check the coord system setting. Mine is set to No Datum, No Projection.

Can see where the coord system holds and where it doesn't?

 

 

 

Tom Richardson


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Message 24 of 38
LesterDJ56
in reply to: C3D_TomR

Geographiclocation only request a file or a map in Civil 3D.
Message 25 of 38
asloat
in reply to: LesterDJ56


@LesterDJ56 wrote:
Geographiclocation only request a file or a map in Civil 3D.

Working on setting this up in 2015 and had similar problem as this poster, found a solution to this part at least, still testign the rest.

 

In 2015 GEO does not offer to let you remove the geo location. instead 

 

  1. Click Geolocation tabLocation panelRemove Location. Find
  2. Click Yes to confirm the removal of geographic location information.

Of course this still doesn't solve the problem where if you use a dynamic north arrow you can't have a datum assigned to the drawing without jumping through hoops. 

Message 26 of 38
PatrickManson
in reply to: asloat

The answer lies in the transformation settings tab of the drawing setting dialog. if you tick the box to apply transformations you can then type 0 in the "to North" angle and then re attach your north arrow to your viewport and the rotation issue will be fixed. Not sure what happens when you change coordinate zones though!

 

Cheers

Message 27 of 38
Pointdump
in reply to: klugb

Yes, I know this is an old thread.

 

Chewed on this for quite a while, and thought about what "North" represents:


MappingAngle.png

 

Then it occured to me that what everyone thinks is "True" North would be better called AutoCAD North, or Top-of-Page. ANY map projection has distortion, both distance and direction. The direction distortion is called Convergence, or Mapping Angle:


MappingAngle2.png

 

So when you force C3D to display the North Arrow "Straight Up", you won't have Grid North, or even "True" North. You'll have AutoCAD North, which completely disregards your Map Projection.

I made up a Screencast using Bruce's Northarrow drawing. In it I zoomed WAAAAAAAY out and moved my cursor East and West of the GeoMarker, aka @mcloughlin 's "Crop Circle".

 

 

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 28 of 38
toolbox2
in reply to: klugb

Civil 3D 2016. Still seems to be a problem.

 

I just want the thing to point upwards. 

 

I don't want to mess with grid and coordinate systems just to get it working.

 

I've given up. The effort isn't worth it. Back to model-space north arrows.

Message 29 of 38
Pointdump
in reply to: toolbox2

TBox,

 

"I just want the thing to point upwards."

 

Then don't assign a Coordinate System. Use "No Projection, No Datum" and you will never again have to deal with it. Of course, you won't be able to use Bing Live Maps or bring in GIS data.


Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 30 of 38
jmartt
in reply to: Pointdump

I don't like this.

 

There should be a way to have an arrow pointed "up" even with a coordinate system. You still have a world UCS, dontcha? There's no way to leave the coordinate system on and get a world UCS north arrow linked to the viewport? The viewport is showing a world UCS, rotated or not, isn't it? Bah!

 

How do the arrows in plan production work right if this doesn't? I'm sure I've had drawings with coordinate systems that I've spit plan & profile out from that the north arrows come out right...Although my sheet template for plan production isn't geolocated. Maybe that's it.

 

I've decided that I'm just going to continue to use this LISP for rotating north arrows. I didn't write it. I don't know who did, but goodonya. I post it here in case someone is at the same point that I am and would settle for automatically--but NOT dynamically--rotating north arrows in paperspace. Putting north arrows in modelspace is not a solution I'm willing to live with.

 

(defun c:rn()
  (setq tw(entget(car(entsel" Select a Viewport:"))))
  (setq new (cdr (assoc 0 tw)))
(cond
                ((= new "VIEWPORT")(setq rt(cdr(assoc 51 tw))))
((= new "LWPOLYLINE")(setq temp (entget(cdr (assoc 330 tw))))(setq rt(cdr(assoc 51 temp))))
             )
  (setq en(car(entsel" Select North Arrow: ")))
  (setq elist(entget en))
  (setq elist(subst (cons 50 rt)(assoc 50 elist) elist))
  (entmod elist)
  (princ)
)

Message 31 of 38
Pointdump
in reply to: jmartt

J,

 

"There should be a way to have an arrow pointed "up" even with a coordinate system."

 

Why, of course there's a way. Make yourself an arrow block and point it any way you want. You can even point it in the "Z" direction, straight at you!

 

What you seem to want is not "North", but "Top of Page". Why would that be useful? Anyone can immediately see which side is up, without an arrow.

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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Message 32 of 38
jmartt
in reply to: Pointdump

I didn't mean top of page. I meant with the Y-axis in the world UCS, regardles of assigned geo-coordinate system. I've got an assigned coordinate system and my Y-axis doesn't get all bent if I pan way east or west. I want the same behavior out of a north arrow.

 

Your video, (which was, as always, both wonderfully informative and visually pleasing), where you moved the crosshairs within the viewport and the dynamic north arrow changed, allowed me to understand the behavior of dynamic north arrows vis-a-vis geo-coordinate systems. I doubt if I'd had really understood it without that exact video.

 

But what I want is a paperspace dynamic north arrow that points up like my Y-axis within the viewport points up. And changes with that. Like the plan production arrows do. An arrow that is smart enough to change with the viewport but dumb enough not to know where real north is.

 

That LISP I posted takes a north arrow and rotates it to a viewport. If I rotate it to a viewport showing a geo-coordinate system, it still points up if my UCS is oriented "up". The dynamic ones come in slightly skewed.

 

I think I made a screencast. (I pasted the URL.) My first one, so not sure.

Message 33 of 38
asloat
in reply to: klugb

Agree with you 100% Jmartt. Fully understand why it is how it is, but can't understand why there simply can't be an option to have everything stay intact, but allow for a dynamic north arrow that is dissasociated from the assigned coordinate system and rotates with the Dview.

Clients sometimes require north is up. They don't understand, and don't want to, that a slightly twisted north is up, but not up.
Message 34 of 38
Pointdump
in reply to: jmartt

J,

 

"An arrow that is smart enough to change with the viewport but dumb enough not to know where real north is."

 

I like that! Well said!

 

Dave

Dave Stoll
Las Vegas, Nevada

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NVIDIA Quadro P5000 16GB
Windows 10 Pro 64 / Civil 3D 2024
Message 35 of 38
C3D_TomR
in reply to: klugb

It may not be dynamic, but at least it roared the north arrow to the correct rotation. Thanks for sharing that lisp routine, @jmartt. I was tempted to mark it as a solution though technically it's just a workaround.

Tom Richardson


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Message 36 of 38
MMcCall402
in reply to: C3D_TomR

I know this thread isn't exactly new but I was aiding one of my users today who was experiencing this behavior. The slight rotation of the linked north arrow seemed to be the result of a coordinate system being designated for the drawing (in our case NJ83F) and the area show within the viewport not being within that coordinate system (coords were something close to 0,0)  We cleared the coordinate system setting and all was well as the items drawn were not within that coordinate system to begin with.

 

I was curious about the behavior so I returned to my machine for further testing.  I opened out template drawing that already has a viewport with a linked north arrow, set a coordinate system and then centered the viewport around 0,0. The linked north arrow displayed a rotation value of 359.  I then recentered the viewport to a location that I knew was well within the designated coordinate system and the north arrow rotation value was now 0. I panned around, staying within that coord system and the value stayed at 0. Then I panned about 1200 miles to the east, waaay outside that system and the arrow showed 355.  So, it seems that your viewport needs to be viewing an area that is within the set coordinate system for the linked north arrow to have a rotation value of 0.

Mark Mccall 
CAD Mangler



Hammer Land Engineering


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Message 37 of 38
jmartt
in reply to: MMcCall402

Well, I dunno. I thought it might be just because I'm so much closer to the pole here, but I changed my coordinate system to New Jersey and I get the same result. The closer I get to the geomarker, the more north the arrow is. When I move around within the coordinates for either AK83F or NJ83F, the arrow gets more and more skewed the father east/west I go. If I'm outside the coordinates, then, it is more skewed, but it started being skewed well within the coordinates.

 

I did notice a "Reset to north-up" option on the settings flyout attached to the dynamic north arrow. (C3D 2017.) I hadn't noticed that before. Or I forgot about it. Perhaps you hit this and then were seeing no skew in your north arrow within your coordinates?

 

Anyway, if you are seeing the paperspace arrow pointing straight up, then I believe you're also seeing your world coordinate system skewed. This is the problem I'm referring to, (being that I'm working with pseudo-state plane coordinates, but want to enjoy the benefits of georeferencing). I want both the UCS and the north arrow to be World. The arrow is too smart for it's own good.

 

...Unless I'm missing something. If you can pan east/west in your coordinate zone and have both the paperspace arrow and the UCS in modelspace both point up, please let me know. And, if possible, let me know how you did it.

Thanks.

Message 38 of 38
MMcCall402
in reply to: jmartt

I re-ran my testing this morning.
 
My test was to draw a rectangle in the area of my state, set that coordinate system and then see how the linked north arrow reacted as I recentered the view over each corner. The north arrow was showing 0. Then I moved a little further out and it went to 359, so apparently there must be some rotation value there that is less than 1 degree there.  Not a big deal if it were just for graphically showing a north arrow however that little tool menu that pops up next to the linked arrow to reset north would be. 
 
I'll put this linked north arrow on the growing list of 'features' that are too unstable and a source of potential errors to use.  I'll keep my north arrows in model space and graphic scales linked with fields, simple, stable, done.

Mark Mccall 
CAD Mangler



Hammer Land Engineering


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