Why the 'drafter' is being phased out of Civil3D

[C3D_RickGraham]

Hi all,

After doing some preliminary stuff with some 'newbie' C3D'ers. I've come to
the conclusion that Civil3D is not 'drafter friendly'. I asked a drafter to
lay out a small parking lot with some handicapped spots. I further told him
that the handicapped spots cannot have greater than 1% slope and must
maintain some sort of gravity flow to the basin (which was given) per the
municipality codes.

You would have thought I was trying to explain Newton's theory to him! So I
had to spend ALOT more time with this drafter to make sure they understood
the concept. Before in L**, the engineer would have gone through this
process for grading:

1. The engineer would have spent x hours drawing in on bumwad the contours.
2. The drafter would take this bumwadded drawing, scan it and TRACE over the
contour lines, which takes x hours

I am trying to get the engineers to give more 'sketch' plans and let the
software do its thing. That is also like trying to push a 100 ton ston up a
12% grade too.

I've given the same job to a designer, which spent x/6 hours doing the
project. so my conclusion is that basic drafters will not fit into the
Civil3D picture on the get-go.

YMMV,

Rick

--
Rick

C3D 2007 SP3
Dell DuoCore 2.66GHz 2GB Ram 256 Dual DVI Dual monitors! 🙂

[T_Bernhard]

I know that my point of view is relatively inexperienced and I may be preaching to the choir, I may be talking out of turn, but I'd like to make one point: an Engineer shouldn't HAVE to do the entire job - that's not his role.

To illustrate: a composer (music) doesn't have to be a concert pianist to do his job. Hell, Beethoven proved that he doesn't even have to be able to hear. A composer composes - a role that is quite challenging enough on its own - and leaves the presentation of his creation to someone whose forte is performance (pun intended) because that is yet another role, one that to effectively execute similarly requires hard work and dedication. The rare composers who can also present a polished performance of their music are duly rewarded for their hard work and talent.

Likewise, the role of an engineer requires one set of not-easily-acquired abilities and a lot of hard work; the effective presentation of the engineer's ideas requires another set. I don't know how many hours I've sunk into keeping up with the vagaries of modern design software and yet I'm only a relatively competent draftsman. The roles overlap, yes, but there is now and will, IMO, continue to be a large set of skills that the average practicing engineer does not have time to keep up with. IMO, he shouldn't have to.

Those rarer engineers that can do both - and there are clearly a number of them in here; perhaps these are what John referred to as "accomplished engineers" - deserve what they get, both in rewards and workload. I don't think the industry should demand that all composers be concert pianists. I don't think it will.

My 2c,
Trevor

[Anonymous]

To use your analogy, when the it's cheaper in the long run to hire a
composer that can play his own music, the guys that can't play will be
looking for a job. If the cost of engineer + designer + time lost in
communication, back and forth, etc is greater than the cost of the C3D
proficient engineer/designer, and you're the CEO, which option do you take?

We're a long way from the supply of option 2 being much more than miniscule,
but we're headed that way.

--
James Wedding, P.E.
Engineered Efficiency, Inc.
Civil 3D 2007
XP Tablet, SP2, 2GHz, 2G
www.eng-eff.com
www.civil3d.com

[T_Bernhard]

Valid point. I still think the synthesisers are going to have to become much more realistic in their output and much easier to play before the majority of composers can also perform well enough. But, as you say, it seems we're headed that way.

Trevor

[apweng]

Good to see the post...

This is a reality that we all must address if we want to optimize the return on our never ending investments. Look at the historical role of the drafter and how it has evolved. Look at how the role of a total station survey crew has changed - and extrapolate another 5 or 10 years. And the designer.

Model based design with C3D (and other apps) is such that drafting is a by-product of the design - and it will get better.

More can be found here ...

www.canadianconsultingengineer.com

Go to the Current Issue (Jan/Feb 07).

The article is called "The Catch Up Game".

It sheds light on this consultants perspective of the industry.

Regards,

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Are you telling me I purchased another Minimoog? 😉

--
John Mayo
Project Engineer
Conklin Associates
Ramsey, NJ

Civil 3D 2007, LDT 2007, Raster Design 2007
P-IV at 3.5 GHz
2 GB Ram
Nvidea Quadro FX w/ 128 MB Ram
wrote in message news:5517518@discussion.autodesk.com...
Valid point. I still think the synthesisers are going to have to become much
more realistic in their output and much easier to play before the majority
of composers can also perform well enough. But, as you say, it seems we're
headed that way.

Trevor

[ACADuser]

I totally agree.

Only one change; Engineer: Project manager

[txus]

Excellent, Andrew

[Anonymous]

genegladden wrote:
> When you look at the three main stages of Civil 3D workflow; Base,
> Design, Sheet. We find that Sheet stage is closes to drafting. It
> doesn't require Design skills. We can see this in how we use styles
> in C3D. In stage 2 (design) we use styles for "info", in stage 3
> (sheet) we use styles for presentation/drafting.
> http://civil3dstyles.net/index.php?topic=6.0

The web link you posted seems to require a login, even at the home
page...any other way to access the information you're pointing to?

--
Himanshu Gohel. Civil 3D Team, Autodesk, Inc.
Autodesk Civil 3D Product Information: http://www.autodesk.com/civil3d
Civil Engineering Community Portal: http://civilcommunity.autodesk.com

[Anonymous]

Phew that was a flurry of some of the best dialog Ive seen on these discussion boards.... and where you are all going with it makes me feel better about my career choices...I graduated engineering college 2 years ago but have self taught myself CAD starting about 10 years ago including C3D starting in early 2006...now Im teaching my entire firm as we roll into 2008...

Anyways my point is I agree with what most of you have said and its a confidence builder to us young guys who hear we are on the right track (engineer/modeler). Even if I cant play any musical instraments (har har)....

Thanks for listening to my rambles!
Kyle

[Anonymous]

Good, glad you liked it.
You now owe us all a beer.
Breckinridge Avalanche for me please.

[Anonymous]

Nice yeah sure Ill buy! Of course you have the next round...Murphys Irish Stout por favor....

[Anonymous]

Ok, so having read all the comments about drafters and modelers/designers, any advise for the 'newbie' who is transitioning from a LDT position (even if I was the ONLY one in the office who used it, including the PE) to an entrepreneurial position in C3D? I have attended a few seminars and am excited about the power it promises, but have yet to find a class nearby or a tech school or university to even teach the topic. Must only be offered in the big cities.... Us country folk are at a loss.

[dana.probert]

most, if not all, of the great users I know are self taught. they started with tutorials, reading blogs, working here and diving into real projects. they got their hearts broken along the way more than once but saw the power during those hard times and kept moving on...

there are few classes offered anywhere that will give you that real hunk of knowledge you are seeking.

i think one of the best places to start is work your way through last year's AU papers and screencasts. login to subscription center to get to the screencasts. papers can be downloaded for free at au.autodesk.com

[Anonymous]

and whatever Dana tells you take it to the bank.
EXCEPT "most, if not all, of the great users I know are self taught."" I've got some who were taught.
That said you still have to learn it yourself.
Teaching gives you the ability to tie your sneakers and how to dribble, it doesn't make you Kobe.

[dana.probert]

They may have been taught how to use the tools

but they had to swing the hammer themselves quite a bit

James hanging around and later the original pilot team may have avoiding some of the thumb smashing

But not all of it.

[gene]

Have you created an account?

[civil3djedi]

so hes the one to blame for the headaches and holes in my wall, j/k

[FeLangsr]

What do you do with the class of "drafter" that steadfastly refuses to adapt their skill set, the 40-50 year old drafter who doesn't want to do more then they have ever done. I find this person to be very resistant to change and as soon as a deadline is eminent and Civil3D is not showing them a contour line in the manner they are used to see, they blow up the entire TIN and go back to hand drafting contours? 

[sboon]

Reviving a ten year old thread like this one is generally considered to be bad form, unless you're adding new information that specifically relates to the original problem.

Steve
Please use the Accept as Solution or Kudo buttons when appropriate

[doni49]

I started out knowing NOTHING about civil engineering.  I remember my instructor trying to explain how to "triangulate a surface" to get contours" but at the time, I was totally lost as to what he was trying to explain.  I graduated with an associate's degree in Architectural CADD.

Over time as the designers would give me work to do, I started to understand the engineering involved.  After a while, they were able to give me some parameters as you've described and I just ran with it.

A drafter who knows nothing about the design aspect needs to have their hand held for some time (but if you expected to have someone who didn't need that, you should've hired a designer not a drafter), but from personal experience it can be learned "on the job".