"Possessed" multileaders

[clindner]

I have a couple multileaders that are "possessed"!!! 

In the attached drawing, there are two objects that look like just blocks. They are actually multileaders similar to EP-0 but without any leaders. (FWIW, they are used as "finish callouts" waiting for leaders to be added later.)

First, use the  COPY command on EP-2. Note two things: you don't see it "drag" as it's being copied (DRAGMODE is Auto) and it copies twice the distance as your pick points!   (Similarly w the MOVE command.) 

It gets weirder...

If you "add leaders" to "EP-1", you can recreate the look of EP-0 just fine. Try adding leader to "EP-2". Note the strange leader behavior. 

And it gets weirder...

Now, UNDO the leader you just added to EP-2. The entire mulileader disappears, including the block content. But, if you do a select all, it select "6 objects", indicating that EP-2 is still in the drawing!  

"You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone"....

Would love to hear your thoughts.

[rkmcswain]

I can confirm your findings, but no idea what's going on....

[kasperwuyts · Accepted solution]

Unfortunately; the PURGE command does not purge demons from DWG-files. Please contact your local exorcist or find a demon-removing macro..

Seriously though, this is some weird behaviour. It has apparently something to do with being annotative, because setting annotative to 'no' and back to 'yes' in the properties pallette restores normal behaviour. (and the way it messes up just reeks of weird scaling behaviour)

[pendean]

This has come up before on several forum threads in the past...
1. You should not use MLEADER symbols 'wtihout' leaders. They just plain act weird. If you need the label, make it a block. Add leaders later or swamp out to an Mleader.
2. If i recreate your EP1 and EP2 from EP0 all that weerdness goes away.

Also observed in the file:
- Your file is a 2010 format with dozens of ADT2007 and ACA2008 proxy objects.
- EP-0 has 'landings' on but set to zero. Wny not turn them off?
- EP-1 and 2 have landings set to 1/8" (and there are no leaders). Why?
- Exploding your MLEADERs to their core components (blocks and leaders) seemed to also solve your EP-1 EP-2 behavior.

[clindner]

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@pendean wrote:
This has come up before on several forum threads in the past...
1. You should not use MLEADER symbols 'wtihout' leaders. They just plain act weird. If you need the label, make it a block. Add leaders later or swamp out to an Mleader.
2. If i recreate your EP1 and EP2 from EP0 all that weerdness goes away.

Also observed in the file:
- Your file is a 2010 format with dozens of ADT2007 and ACA2008 proxy objects.
- EP-0 has 'landings' on but set to zero. Wny not turn them off?
- EP-1 and 2 have landings set to 1/8" (and there are no leaders). Why?
- Exploding your MLEADERs to their core components (blocks and leaders) seemed to also solve your EP-1 EP-2 behavior.

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Thanks, pendean.

My first reaction, too, when I saw a "leaderless multileaders" was to ask, "Why not just use a block?!" Seems like an unconventional approach, but I see the value in doing it. Sometimes, especially w annotation, you may not have room to place a symbol so having the option to place it anywhere and just add a leader to it "on the fly" is a timesaver. Much more feasible/preferable to just drawing a separate mleader to it or having to erase it and replacing it w mleader entirely). 

I agree regarding the landings. Not my drawing, was just sent to me to fix.

Exploding the Mleader would, as you say, "solve" the behavior issues, but, heaven help us if we have to start exploding things to actually "solve" problems in AutoCAD. Definately NOT what I am going to tell our users to start doing when they hit a snag!

The fact leaderless mleaders act weird is not an issue with the user, IMO. It is Autodesk not doing adequate user testing to see how people would use this feature in the real world.

<rant mode = on>, I refer to mleaders as one of the "Autodesk orphans". They were a great "new feature" to generate sales of AutoCAD 2008, but were never finished, IMO (and confirmed by multiple A'deskers at laster years AU). Mleaders break every rule that Autodesk had regarding styles and overrides. Autodesk simple "fathered" this feature then abandonded it, leaving it (semi-)useable but not fully developed. And they've since moved on to other new & sexy features that generate new sales and present well to the shareholders. Features which, I fear, will suffer the same abandonment as ones introduced in the past. <rant mode = off>

Thanks for the other feedback re proxies.

[steve216586]

Never use MLEADER, always use QLEADER.

Never again have a problem, drawing, editing, plotting, viewing, scaling, annotating, changespacing...

Why use a backward command in MLEADER?  "Select text box bounds out in space, type text, (which may fit in original box or may not), point to object, move text box to accomodate space available."

Why not the straight forward command using QLEADER? "Select object to point to, select point for start of text, create any size of text field while typing the text, in length and height, which actually fits!"

[doben]

One thing I noticed is that the current content type of the MLEADER is set to MTEXT. It would of been set to BLOCK when the mleaders were added so that may be part of the problem.  

[clindner]

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@kasperwuyts wrote:

It has apparently something to do with being annotative, because setting annotative to 'no' and back to 'yes' in the properties pallette restores normal behaviour. (and the way it messes up just reeks of weird scaling behaviour)

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You are correct, kasperwuyts! I would expect no less supernatural assistance on this mysterious issue than from someone named "kasper"! 🙂

Toggling the mleaders to non-annotative & back seems to exorcise them. It doesn't explain the occurance, but lets us move on without having to recreate them.

Thanks!

[clindner]

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@steve216586 wrote:

Never use MLEADER, always use QLEADER.

Never again have a problem, drawing, editing, plotting, viewing, scaling, annotating, changespacing...

Why use a backward command in MLEADER?  "Select text box bounds out in space, type text, (which may fit in original box or may not), point to object, move text box to accomodate space available."

Why not the straight forward command using QLEADER? "Select object to point to, select point for start of text, create any size of text field while typing the text, in length and height, which actually fits!"

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Thanks, Steve, but not thanks. I don't share your passion for QLeaders. It's just another of Autodesk's half-baked leader tools, the QLeader. It's only a slightly improved version of the LEADER command, IMO. Oddly, both QLEADER and LEADER create the same object, a "leader". 

I'm not sure how using QLeaders will eliminate problems re "drawing, editing, plotting, viewing, scaling, annotating, changespacing...". Current weirdness aside, I'd much rather draw/edit/scale a single-object MLeader than "sometimes connected" leaders & text. (See, now you're making me defend the MLeaders that I just ranted about above!) 

[steve216586]

I only made my remark because:

1. There are hundreds of discussions about MLEADER all through the boards and archived versions, but maybe one about QLEADER.

2. I haven't used MLEADER or TEXT commands since 2004 and never have problems with QLEADER with 0 width for leadered text and plain Mtext. Maybe that is the origin to the problem you experienced when you state, "sometimes connected" leader and text. That drives me crazy when users put a width on text in general. Let me decide where returns should be. Also, width defined MLEADER & QLEADER text has far too many grips to deal with. 0 width QLEADER text has one grip. KISS procedure to me. 

I was just trying to suggest an alternative to a verifiable faulty feature of AutoCAD. I'm sure you have done one procedure for some time, and then suggested an alternative, which was clumsy at first but more desireable once you were accustomed to it.

I was truly tying to be helpful.

[clindner]

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@doben wrote:

One thing I noticed is that the current content type of the MLEADER is set to MTEXT. It would of been set to BLOCK when the mleaders were added so that may be part of the problem.  

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Interesting, doben.

The content type of that Mleader style is "MText, as you state. Now you mention it, I'm not exactly sure how the user created these leaders in the first place. To my knowledge, there is not a lisp routine or CUI macro that changes the content type during creation. And you can't change the content type in the properties palette. At minimum, thee should be an MLeader style with the block assigned to it.

The mystery continues.

[clindner]

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@steve216586 wrote:

I only made my remark because:

1. There are hundreds of discussions about MLEADER all through the boards and archived versions, but maybe one about QLEADER.

2. I haven't used MLEADER or TEXT commands since 2004 and never have problems with QLEADER with 0 width for leadered text and plain Mtext. Maybe that is the origin to the problem you experienced when you state, "sometimes connected" leader and text. That drives me crazy when users put a width on text in general. Let me decide where returns should be. Also, width defined MLEADER & QLEADER text has far too many grips to deal with. 0 width QLEADER text has one grip. KISS procedure to me. 

I was just trying to suggest an alternative to a verifiable faulty feature of AutoCAD. I'm sure you have done one procedure for some time, and then suggested an alternative, which was clumsy at first but more desireable once you were accustomed to it.

I was truly tying to be helpful.

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And I appreciate it!

I'm all for alternative, out-of-the-box thinking and new ways of doing things. And, yes, new doesn't alway feel natural at first. The problem with "workarounds" (which I feel QLeader are) is that they become habits which take attention off of the original problem. And as long as people just keep reverting back to a previous (sub-standard) feature, Autodesk is less likely to fix their once-new-now-orphaned feature. We're talking about a feature that is 7 years old, yes, in it's 7th, release of AutoCAD, with hardly any perceptable improvements. Pitiful.

As Dean Saadallah stated in another Leader/Qleader/Mleader thread (even back in 2008): "None are best, each has it's strong and weak points, just be consistent is the best advice."

Thanks for weighing in! If nothing else, it helps us take a fresh look at our methods and, by trying to articulate them, either confims or challenges them.

[sue.lindgren]

I actually like Mleaders because I can control all of them at once for appearance (landings, arrows, etc.) and I can add/remove leaders as needed. But I could do without needing to "exorcise" them by turning annotative off and back on!