Plot scale/Annotation scale/Viewport scale
I couldn’t figure out how these three types of scales are correlated with one another.
For example, my drawing unit in AutoCAD is meter. And thus
I couldn’t derive the rule that controls these three types of scales
This is also quite confusing when working with C3D! Sounds not the same loghic is applied
>> if I need to print my drawing with a scale of 1:200 then I set the
>> annotation scale to be 1:2
>> viewport scale to be 1:2
>> plot scale 100:1000
>> if I need to print my drawing with a scale of 1:20 then I set the
>> annotation scale to be 5:1
>> viewport scale to be 5:1
>> plot scale 100:1000
That sounds a little bit more complicated as it should/could be.
If I want to plot 1:200 I set the viewport to 1:200 and that's it.I donÄt have to take care of the any other zoom-calculation or annotation-scale or ...
If you are used to draw in units=meter you just have to verify that the predefined scales are set correctly in your drawing as Autodesk see's the default units as millimeter, so the calculation is different like you see it on my screenshot (this is for 1:200 when your units are set to meter)
And that settings can also be saved as predefined drawing-scales within _OPTIONS ==> (tab) User Preferences ==> (button) Default Scale List. That gives you the chance to do a reset of scalelists in every drawing using these new defaults.
I hope it's a help that I created and attached a drawing with two viewports. Give it a try, select one viewport, change it's scale e.t. to 1:500 or 1:2500, do a _REGENALL and that's it, finished for plotting.
- alfred -
AutoCAD does not default to mm. AutoCAD is a cartesian coordinate program. It doesn't care what unit you are working with. The units could be feet, inches, mm, M, Fathoms, or Lightyears. It simply draws a line from an (X, Y) axis coordinate point, (1,2) to another (5,-4). Or if working in 3D, a three (X, Y, Z) coordinate point. (-2,8,15)
The UNITS settings dialog box is used only for the purpose of setting the units for direct input on the command line and to define how blocks are scaled when inserted. The viewport and annotative scales should not be "re" scaled. 1:200 is 1 Paper unit = 200 Drawing units. It doesn't matter what the unit is, the program will create a ratio to scale by 200. You never try to rescale mm to get M by changing the SCALELISTEDIT values!
For example, if you were creating a detail drawing of a flight of steps, you would most likely use millimeters (Architects will almost always use millimeters). If, on the other hand you are drawing a landscape masterplan, you would probably want to work in meters (Landscape Architects and Civil Engineers usually use meters). This doesn't mean you change the SCALELISTEDIT values so you use 1:20 for the stairs and also in another drawing have changed those values so you use 1:20 for a 160M walkway. You should set the preferred UNITS value and only change the Layout scale, to fit what you have drawn, into the paperspace. Whether that means you have to use 1:2000 or 1:2.
Also don't draw using a "scale." Draw everything full size. Once again, it doesn't matter if you are drawing in mm or M. If you are drawing a 2M wide X 160M long walkway the UNITS variable should be set to Meters. Then when you input for the first line of your walk you would enter "2" for the width and "160" for the length in the command line. You could also use mm and enter "2000" for the width and "160000" for length. But never use M for the UNITS variable, then draw the walkway with using "2000" or ".002" as your command line entry. All your scales should be the same. i.e. the annotative scale should match the Viewport scale. The plot scale in the page set up manager for the plotter should be 1:1 or 1:2 for half sizes.
>> 1:200 is 1 Paper unit = 200 Drawing units. It doesn't matter what the unit is
That is theoretically true, and now do one test:
And that is the reason why I have to change the scale-parameters as the above print situation is now displaying 1:1000 and not 1:1.
Where comes the difference from? This statement
>> 1:200 is 1 Paper unit = 200 Drawing unit
... is only true, when you work with the same units in the modelspace as the units for the layout. In no other case it will work. As long as you can't use meter as units for the layout/page-setup you can't use e.g. the predefined scale-settings with the values they are set to.
>> and only change the Layout scale
Do you really mean you change the value in the pagesetup-dialog? Come on, every time you need a layout with another scale you need another titleblock-scale-setting?
The scale-setting in the pagesetup-dialog should always stay 1:1 as long as you want to plot the layout as defined. If you define A0 you want to plot it in A0 ... so why do you need to change that? Just in one case, if I need it (for whatever reasons) smaller than defined, so plotting a A0 layout to A2, then you can change the scaling values within the pagesetup- (or plot-) dialog.
Also think of using fields for page-sizes (your scaling would show paper-sizes 1000 times larger then in reality) or if you want to place a text with a height of 5mm in paper you now have to think about how your will set the scale-factor in the pagesetup to get the correct size ... no, please not.
- alfred -
Jamal - this is due to the sheet being a mm size and you drawing in M. I use the attached to determine the plot scale when this is the case. With a difference of 1000 between the two you can see how the values will be determined.
Alfred, not again!
First problem with your example is you opened a metric template which sets the INSERTION SCALE to mm, thinking that sets the drawing scale to mm. That only sets the UNITS variable for inserting objects to mm. It does not set the drawing scale. I'll explain.
Open the same template and make the necessary changes in the UNITS dialog box that suit your drafting field. If you want inches, choose inches, if you want mm, then choose mm. My point was that the UNITS dialog only specifies the current unit of measurement and the precision for the current units, and what the insertion scale is set. It does not define how long a line is in Model space...You do! If you type "4" in the command line, you can control with the UNITS variable, under length, whether you are using Architectural, Decimal, Engineering, Fractional or Scientific command line input. Nowhere, have you set a unit such as Meter, Foot, etc. Once you start drawing you have set the units of your drawing. If using, for example, DECIMAL setting in UNITS then your command line input would look like this: "2.25". 2.25 what you may ask? Whatever you want. That could be 2.25 feet or Meters or mm or furlongs. For ARCHITECTURAL, the command line input could be two things: 14-1/2 or 14'1/2". 14'1/2" would still be valid if your insertion scale was set to mm or Meter. So again, 14-1/2 what? Whatever you want it to be. 14-1/2 cubits, if that is your preferred unit.
Where people have a problem is, when they insert a block from an outside source which was drawn to a different unit than what they have their drawing set to. Not a different INSERTION SCALE unit! That may not make sense but please follow closely. If I insert a block drawing where someone is using mm into my drawing and I am using inches, they have used "keyboard command line" input such as 200 for a line where my input for the SAME distance in my drawing would be 7.875. So when I insert his block into my drawing, I get an object which is 200 inches in length not 7.875 inches. Why so big? Because "I" decided every Model space UNIT would be 1 inch and the other draftsman decided every Model space unit in his drawing would be a mm. INSERTION SCALE variable had nothing to do with this. Consequently, I have to therefore "scale" his block down by 0.039375. But the INSERTION SCALE I have set to inches will automatically do this for me. Well, "should" automatically do this for me. (That can be debated whether it works as well in practice than in theory. I've had drawings drawn in feet still not scale to my inches.)
explains probably better than I can but you are under a few false ideas about what UNITS does and how to set Units and Scales. A lot of people are though, so its no indictment on your talent as an AutoCAD user. I think you are very knowledgeable from just reading on this forum, some of your troubleshooting solutions.
"... is only true, when you work with the same units in the modelspace as the units for the layout." This statement should ALWAYS be true!! I can't believe anyone would work differently! Why? It would cause so much headache as the OP described!!!
"Do you really mean you change the value in the pagesetup-dialog? Come on, every time you need a layout with another scale you need another titleblock-scale-setting?" I have my page set up set for ARCHITECTURAL D SIZE paper. Internally we use the 11x17 printer. I do not print "FIT TO PAPER". I print 1:1 for D size on a roll plotter and 1:2 for half size on a printer, so my scale is still "true" on both sizes. No other title block is necessary! i don't know how you got that?
I didn't understand your last paragraph. Maybe you can explain further?
>> Alfred, not again!
Sorry, I forgot ;(
I didn't state this but one way to look at a drawing units is any number of Model space "units" can be any length you want to define them as. If I input a line's distance as 6 on the command line then it could be 6 of anything, M, ", ', mm, etc. Where it will be defined is through my dimension set up manager. That is where I will define what unit that line is. Because my dimensions label lines. If I sent you a drawing with no dimensions, you woiuldn't know what the units were. Not through the UNITS command. Seems strange they would call a command, which has little to nothing to do with a drawing's units, UNITS.
Thank you guys for the rich discussion! This is a very good opportunity to know from experts like you how you look at the same issue and how you handle it
1000 mm = 100 units
If I’m drawing with mm, then this is what I set
1mm = 100 units
This is quite clear! I should tell the AutoCAD how to print my drawing based on the units I’m drawing with BUT NOT BASED ON THE “UNITS” SET IN THE AUTOCAD. Also, I ensure that the text height, dimension text height, hatch, etc. looks fine as they are printed with scale of 1/100. This will be my base to derive 1/200 and 1/50 scale
>> THIS IS WHAT CONFUSED ME THE MOST!
Go my way, then you can ignore all these conflicts, if you want to plot 1:1000 in one viewport, 1:500 in the other viewport, give these viewports the setting 1:1000 and 1:500 (the annotative objects know then how they have to represent in both viewports) and plot the layout. You don't need any calculation or think-three-circles around to know what annotation-scale you have to set to get the plot in the scale you like.
And setting UNITS to meter does not only tell you how other drawings are inserted, it's also the definition how this drawing is inserted to other drawings!
- alfred -