AutoCAD 2007/2008/2009

AutoCAD 2007/2008/2009

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ramosm
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎01-14-2009
Message 1 of 22 (5,270 Views)

Engineer's seal with signature

5270 Views, 21 Replies
01-13-2011 06:00 AM

Does anyone have any advice on how best to create a dwg with an engineer's seal with signature?

Don't want to attach it as a pdf to the border and titleblock dwg because even if I turn off imageframe

in this dwg I will still have to open all dwgs to which this border dwg is attached to and turn off imageframe

on them as well.

 

ramosm

 

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dgorsman
Posts: 5,698
Registered: ‎10-12-2006
Message 2 of 22 (5,258 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

01-13-2011 07:58 AM in reply to: ramosm

Best advice, is don't.  Engineers are legally responsible for maintaining control of where their stamp is used.  Incorporating the signature with the stamp makes it too easy for it to be duplicated elsewhere.

 

Second best advice is check your jurisdiction and the rules of the engineers professional organization to see if you are even allowed to do this.

 

I know, some don't like manually signing a stack of drawings but its one of those things that comes with the job.

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CCDesigner
Posts: 66
Registered: ‎06-23-2010
Message 3 of 22 (5,145 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-13-2011 06:21 AM in reply to: ramosm

If I remember correctly, regardless of how or where the stamp is used, the PE must also sign each stamp for it to be valid. The Civil I used to work for had his stamp in DWG format and we inserted the stamp (a block) into each sheet. Before the production set went out, he went through and signed each one.

 

What we did was inserted his stamp from PDF, then just traced the PDF. It was actually quite simple and you only have to do it once. Then all you would have to do each time the stamp changes (say, the EXP date) is edit the text field.

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R. Williams
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JGerth
Posts: 2,226
Registered: ‎12-05-2005
Message 4 of 22 (5,116 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 07:37 AM in reply to: ramosm

I'll back up the advice to not do it.  It's a really poor idea for a lot of reasons.  For one thing, it has no legal validity -- even if your jurisdiction accepts digitized copies of an engineer's seal, a digitized copy of a signature has zero legal weight.  Applying that to a drawing and sending it out when a signed and sealed submittal is required is not meeting the obligation that is required of a registered professional engineer,

 

 

A 'fake' copy of a signature and seal is really only useful if someone want to commit fraud, or truly wants to get in a world of legal bs when a picture of his signature starts showing up on documents he never signed.  Might survice it, but after defending himself in court against lawsuits, spending legal fees, and heck, night lose anyway -- no telling what assininities a judge or jury will end up deciding.

 

digitized signature /= digital signature

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CCDesigner
Posts: 66
Registered: ‎06-23-2010
Message 5 of 22 (5,112 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 07:53 AM in reply to: JGerth
Jgerth said: A 'fake' copy of a signature and seal is really only useful if someone want to commit fraud
Whoa... I said absolutely nothing about forging anyone's signature. What I said was "regardless of how or where the stamp is used, the PE must also sign each stamp for it to be valid." When a PE has 1000's of drawing to Stamp & Sign in any given week, having a digital seal can be a real time saver. Especially in a time crunch (which never happens, right?!). :smileyhappy:
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JGerth
Posts: 2,226
Registered: ‎12-05-2005
Message 6 of 22 (5,109 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 08:08 AM in reply to: CCDesigner

CCDesigner -- I meant to reply to the OP, not trying to imply in any way that you were advocating forging signatures. 

 

Fraud would be most probable  if  when a faux copy of a digitized seal and/or signature gets out into the wild.  it's not unkown in the world that a client will try to submit stuff or pass on to contractors a cad file -- and once it's out in the world, it's out there.  Not everyone on the planet behaves ethically.    And, ss has been said before, you can't take pee out of a swimming pool.

 

The digital copy of a seal _may_ be allowable, or it may not be.  That is going to depend on the jurisdiction, so the only suggestion I can offer there is to check with the local liscensing bodies.  Personally, it's just not worth the risk fo liability or defending against same.

 

Doesn't matter if the PE has to sign/seal two drawings, or two thousand.  It's part of his job, and as a condition of his license he's _required_ to adhere to the requirements in his jurisdiction.  If the officals permit digitized copies of a pe seal, or a rubber stamp seal, then that's ok.  it they require on impression seals, well then, that's what must be done.  Hand cramps are not anyone else's problem.  and if he loses a nights sleep crimping and signing two thousand sheets, cie la view.

 

After all, he can always sell used pianos instead of doing engineering.

 

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CCDesigner
Posts: 66
Registered: ‎06-23-2010
Message 7 of 22 (5,107 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 08:15 AM in reply to: JGerth

Thanks for the clarification, but the OP didn't ask IF it could (or should) be done, he asked HOW. I told him.

 

And BTW, if anyone wants to steal anything (digital or phycial) they're going to. Locks only keep the honest people out.

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JGerth
Posts: 2,226
Registered: ‎12-05-2005
Message 8 of 22 (5,105 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 08:23 AM in reply to: CCDesigner

Yup,  he asked "How can I?", and I said "Don't - and here's some of the reasons why it's a bad idea." 

And while it's true that anything can be misappropriated, and locks only keep out honest people, the "whatever it is" has to exist first.  If no digital copy of a pe seal & signature exists, then it can't be misappropriated or misued.  That someone else could scan or digitize it from hardcopy is still possible, but (I suspect) less a potential liability than if the owner of the seal/signature creates it and posts it.

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CCDesigner
Posts: 66
Registered: ‎06-23-2010
Message 9 of 22 (5,101 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 08:42 AM in reply to: JGerth

I understand what you're saying. And I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with what you did say. But understand, that even a physical seal can be just as easily "misappropriated" if stolen from the PEs drawer. Or if the PE's # is known to the client it can also just as easily be stolen as well.

 

Signed drawings go out to clients on a daily basis. What's to prevent the client from photocopying or xeroxing any one of those pages and taping the signed seal onto other projects that they have?

 

It's good to know the pros and cons against creating a digital seal, but that isn't the only way to prevent misappropriation of the seal. I guess my point is that no matter what you do or how you do it, misappropriation can happen but it isn't always likely. The PE I used to work for has been doing it for many years and not once has he had to report his number stolen or misused.

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AutoCAD 2010 Certified Professional
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dgorsman
Posts: 5,698
Registered: ‎10-12-2006
Message 10 of 22 (5,099 Views)

Re: Engineer's seal with signature

02-15-2011 09:36 AM in reply to: CCDesigner

The way we prevent illegitimate copies is the engineer hand signs the printed copy over his electronic permit stamp.  Its documented by us that only that specific copy is legal.  Clients get a scanned copy and the CAD file without the permit stamp.  They could try to get fancy with copy/paste but that first bit allows us to pull out the original and say "THIS is the issued drawing.  End of story."

 

There's still some room for abuse but they would have to work for it.

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If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
Adopt. Adapt. Overcome. Or be overcome.
A good question will be halfway to a good answer.


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