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lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

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01-10-2012 05:48 AM

Hi there,

 

This leads on from another post in the Inventor forums. I have a model which I wish to run through Moldflow. I have exported it as an STL, however when imported it says 3D analysis has been disabled as there are model defects. A prototype mould tool is being machined as we speak with no problems, why can't Moldflow see the model as a simple solid like the CNC machine? When I dont have hollow sections in the model, it fills obscurely - It flows to the tail and makes its way back up around the spine and doesn't fill. Its as if it has manifested some sort of blockage. I've used different view options to look at my model but there doesn't seem to be anything strange?

 

Can anyone assist with this?

 

Thanks in Advance

 

Ross

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Product Support
nordhb
Posts: 453
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-11-2012 02:06 AM in reply to: lalakiross

Hi,
when importing the solid, the import log says:
***Error***        Surface self intersects.

The solid model needs to be meshed with triangle elements (surface mesh for Dual Domain solver) or tetrahedral elements (volume mesh 3D solver) suitable for flow analysis.
The starting point can be a cad solid or stl-model.
To mesh for 3D, the model is first surface meshed. If the cad model has areas where surface self intersect, the mesh will intersect as well, and if it does it cannot mesh to 3D. (There are some automatic fixing/healing within certain tolerances, but if too large it has to be fixed in cad model.)

This model is suitable for 3D analysis.
And looking closer to model there are areas where surface self intersects that causing the meshing to 3D quality.
(see attached picture)
There are also some self-intersections.
Cleaned this up in Autodesk Moldflow Cad Doctor 2012, and removed the radiuses causing the problem to be able to progress.
The model then can be used for 3D analysis in Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012 (Manufacturing or Advanced package).

Maybe you can fix this area on your cad model.

Also want to make you aware of that with Autodesk Moldflow Design Link 2012, you can install the option to import .sat and .ipt to Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012, with no additional license required.

Regards,
Berndt



Berndt Nordh
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Contributor
lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-11-2012 05:23 AM in reply to: nordhb

Hi Berndt,

 

Thanks for your input. Im using the software at university and we dont have the CAD doctor and I wont have permission to install it. I've tried remodelling the lure, constraining all sketches, etc, but it still doesnt want to accept it for 3D analysis. You're saying its the fillets Im putting on that it doesnt like, but I need them on the model. I can try without them just to do the analysis and see if my lecturer finds this acceptable. Could you possibly attach the fixed working model so I can run it through Moldflow on my system please?

 

I've also noted on our version of Moldflow, the icons for all the buttons on the toolbar disappear or show as black squares? and it takes an age to go anywhere.

 

 

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Product Support
nordhb
Posts: 453
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-11-2012 06:07 AM in reply to: lalakiross

Hi,

attach the udm-file that runs in 3D and you can import to Autodesk Moldflow Adviser.

Regarding disappearing icons: the reason for this can be graphics driver version and/or hardware specification.
The recommendation is to update to latest graphics driver.
It might be so, the computer needs more RAM. Free up RAM by closing not needed software.
Another suggestion, is to reinstall Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1, but that is the last to try. 

Regards,
Berndt



Berndt Nordh
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Contributor
lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-16-2012 05:17 AM in reply to: nordhb

Hi Berndt,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I imported the UDM file but its filling very strangely. I can't see the flow front, its as if its filling the skin and not the solid, maybe thats the computer graphics? Also, it misses a portion under the fin on top, it slows down even though the cross section is quite large. The tail doesn't fill properly either, but I guess this could be down to material choice, etc. Also it takes over 10 seconds to fill - this is very high (material chosen was Geon Vinyl) - treied to switch material and re-run but it fails.

 

I remodelled the lure as attached and have cut out sections internally where some internal components are going to be so I can look at the flow around these. Even after remodelling, its still complaining about defects and won't run at all :smileysad:

 

Any Ideas? Can you see what result you get please?

 

Best Regards

 

Ross

 

 

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Contributor
lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-16-2012 07:52 AM in reply to: lalakiross

OK, I've changed my model by starting again and it allows me to select for 3D analysis. However, after starting the analysis wizard, it fails and gives no reason. Can someone take a look? So frustrating being so close, but when it doesn't give an error message, I dont know whats wrong.

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Product Support
nordhb
Posts: 453
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-17-2012 03:57 AM in reply to: lalakiross

Hi,
the issue with the model is that it recognize two bodies, and one is from Emboss3.
This is not connected to main body and causes overlapping mesh elements.
Removing or fix this will make 3D analysis work.

Not sure why there are hollow areas inside the geometry, as it does not make sense from mold design and common injection molding.

Anyway, enclose 2 studies that runs fine:
1- one with removed Emboss3 and it's mirrored pattern
(due to file size this is a Dual Domain model. To run as 3D in Adviser:
right-click Analysis Sequence (above material funnel in Study Tasks pane)
and select Change to true 3D)
2- one with removed Emboss3 and it's mirrored pattern + removed hollow areas

(Note: the die direction in Adviser is Z-axis, as projected area is in XY-plane in Adviser.
Seems as this model should be rotated to get the right orientation.)

Further, as running student version, an Adviser related topic should be posted at http://students.autodesk.com/ 

Regards,
Berndt



Berndt Nordh
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Contributor
lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-17-2012 04:50 AM in reply to: nordhb

Hi Berndt,

 

A big thank you for your help :smileyhappy: The reason for the hollow pockets is to simulate where internal overmoulded components will be. Inventor doesn't make it easy to remove one object from another, its a two click process in Delcam Powershape, I've followed the steps to do it in Inventor (copying obejcts and removing them) but it ends up deleting the wrong part, so I found the simpler way was to use loft and extrude to remove these areas. The hook has a lead weight moulded on which sites in the front pocket - the hook will stick out from the body and there is provision in the tool to hold this centrally to allow an even coating around the components.

 

Thanks Again

 

Ross 

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Contributor
lalakiross
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎01-06-2012

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-17-2012 07:54 AM in reply to: lalakiross

...on the verge of launching the computer :smileysad: I've removed the fins on the side completely (emboss 3 and the mirror) and ran it in PP. Went back to run it in another material and its come up with the same error message yet again (model preparation failed). So went back an hour or so later and tried running it again - now it processes the model - green progress bar at bottom runs along to the end then it does absolutely nothing, not even an error message this time - Im very confused and frustrated.

 

I've even tried the models you attached and they don't even work - it gets to processing model then comes up "Model Preparation Failed" with no reason or explanation. (see screenshot). The copy I created was in True 3D - none of the models work. In the error message it says see summary for details, but it tells me absolutely nothing as to what the error is. I've went through dozens of slightly changed models to see if its that but it appears that the software is failing as the models you sent are not processing on my system.

 

Why is this happening? The software seems to be very glitched (Student Edition 2010). All I want is a simple fill time graphic and pressure graphic of my model being filled, like the one you attached. The software is going nowhere now - How can it run it once fine then revert to the same error message as before even though the model is identical?? now its not running at all even on a different computer - argh!

 

I don't want to go off on one irrationally, but we have the software to use for our projects as part of a deal with Autodesk in the view that when we leave for industry, we will become customers of Autodesk and/or introduce it to our future workplace. The educational version of Moldflow is hugely frustrating and not consistent/dependable, maybe its all down to my model, but I doubt it if it is working out for you Berndt.

 

Can someone explain why this is happening once and for all? I'm at my wits end - I need the graphics of this analysis for an important report.

 

Please feel free to move this thread to the student edition forum.

 

Thanks

 

Ross

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Product Support
nordhb
Posts: 453
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: Model Defects - 3D Analysis Disabled

01-18-2012 02:50 AM in reply to: lalakiross

Hi,
this model preparation for 3D analysis seems to be related to the release installed: Adviser 2010.
Latest release is Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012, Service Pack 2.
Using Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012 SP2, it works as shown in picture in previous reply.
The 3D model preparation has improved in Adviser since 2010 release.

Please, install Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012, and Service Pack 2, and rerun.
Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012 student version is available for download at
http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=download_center
(Free for students, and you need to register before downloading.)
For this study, in Adviser 2012 SP2, analysis completed on PP, ABS, PVC.
See attached picture

The workflow used was to import .ipt from Inventor 2012 (where emboss3+mirror was removed) and Autodesk Moldflow Design Link 2012 to import the .ipt file directly to Autodesk Moldflow Adviser 2012. (Autodesk Moldflow Design Link 2012 for .ipt and .sat do not required additional license)
After you reply also creating stl in Inventor 2012, import to Adviser 2012, and this can be run in 3D analysis too.
This takes reasonable time to run on my workstation.

Regards,
Berndt



Berndt Nordh
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