Phasing and hidden lines

[mmouvet]

I have a problem with New Works and hidden lines.

Existing model elements like pipes and pumps and fittings all have hidden line detail.

Whereas the New Works elements (also Pipes, fittings and Mech equipment) do not. All new works, regardless of weather the pipes cross over each other or over equipment, they are still solid line.

Discipline and sub discipline are Mech and HVAC respectively. 

I have attached some images to illustrate what I am having trouble with.

The larger image has 3 areas highlighted in red.

Number 1 clearly shows hidden line detail on existing elements.

Number 2 shows New elements shown as bold continuous lines.

Number 3 shows I have the view at fine detail, hidden line.

The second attachment shows how my phase filters are set up.

The 3rd shows how my visibility graphics are set up. 

Where do I find the setting where hidden lines can override all phasing? 

Where am I going wrong?

EDIT: The same applies to my centre lines.

[CoreyDaun]

It looks like you've modified your Phase Filters quite a bit. The image below depicts the default settings associated with the default Mechanical Template.

The first see that you've changed the "New" column for all of your Filters to "Overridden". This means that instead of obeying the Object Styles or Visibility/Graphics Overrides, new elements will follow whatever override settings are defined in the Graphics Overrides tab under Phasing. My assumption is that there is a "Solid Line" Override in effect here. By the default settings, New should be set to "By Category" so that new elements obey Object Styles and other visibility settings according to their Category.

Secondly, you've set all of your "Existing" to "By Category". This means that your Existing Elements will obey the normal Object Styles and Visibility/Graphics Overrides. Normally, Existing elements are set to "Overridden" so that the Graphics Overrides can apply a gray or otherwise diminished appearance to existing elements. By default, the corresponding Graphics Overrides for existing elements is a gray color and a solid line with a lessened weight (Projection Lines: 2, Cut Lines: 3). Because of the Solid Line Pattern override, Existing elements do not display Hidden Lines. If you would like to alter the appearance of existing elements, you can do so under the Graphics Overrides tab, and for instance, remove the Line Pattern Override, but leave the gray color and line weight overrides in place.

Don't hesitate to post if you have any questions or if any of this is unclear!

[mmouvet]

I want the new items to be bold as per the phasing, but not the detail lines: hidden and centre. 

They have to be exclusive of the new works. 

[CoreyDaun]

Whatever overrides you apply with the Phase Filter Overrides will apply to all applicable elements, so all of your new elements will be displayed as one line weight. You cannot make exclusions to this, so if you want your Hidden and Centre Lines to not appear bold, you cannot use this method to get the bold appearance.

I would suggest changing the settings back to "By Category" as per the default settings and using Object Styles to dictate each Category's Line Weight. See the image below; note that the Duct and that big fat Pipe is very bold, but the centre line and the hidden lines (Duct under the Pipe) are thin. Under Object Styles, the default Line Weight of the Ducts and Pipes Categories is 5 by default, thus pretty bold.

The Center Lines belong to a Subcategory to Ducts and Pipes, and it can be set to whatever Line Weight you wish, but if the Phase Graphics Overrides are forcing a bold line onto all new elements, Object Styles will be overridden.

As for the Hidden Line, that a specific feature and the Line Weight of MEP Hidden Lines is defined in Manage tab » Additional Settings ▼ Line Styles, under the listing "MEP Hidden".

Again, if I've misunderstood your request or if this is unclear, please post!

[mmouvet]

So I set values to line thicknesses in Vis/Graphics and set all visible elements in phase filters to By Category.

Since I want new works to come out bold, but I want to maintain detail lines like Hidden and Centre lines It seemes to work...However;

Since I did that, all my existing lines have reverted to bold (as this is NOT the case - in our office, existing linework must be thin).

So, how do I address this? I can go to Phase Filters and set all Existing elements to Override and I get the same thing again, except in reverse:

As a matter of maintaining office standards, the methods stated above are inadequate for retrofit projects, where existing buidling elements share the same view as new. Am I missing something?

[CoreyDaun]

I would suggest using Object Styles to define each Category's Line Weight since that is a global setting. Visibility/Graphics Overrides only applies to the current View, but have a higher priority than Object Styles.

You will also have to restore the default Phase Filter Settings for Exiting as well (i.e. "Overridden" for "Show Previous + New"). That way, the appropriate Phase Graphics Overrides are applied to all existing elements, which takes priority over both Object Styles and V/G Overrides, thus making all existing elements display as a thin, gray, solid line (by the default settings).

Under the default settings for Phase Filters, you should get all of your new elements shown as bold lines while all existing elements are shown as thin lines. This is assuming that the correct Phase and Phase Filter as assigned to the View, in the case of a new work plan, "New Construction" and "Show Previous + New", respectively. You can try playing around with some elements and their phasing in a new Project using a default Project Template if you want to see how it looks if you don't want to change your Project's current settings.

[mmouvet]

I have done all you have suggested and it seems to me that Revit does not make any differentiation between detail lines (centre and hidden) and phase filter conditions applied to the elements in that phase. Thick lines as per phase filter overrides translates to think detail lines, centre and hidden.

This needs attention on Autodesks part, as we here in Australia, are being pushed into BIM development, not just for new works (where Revit shines), but - for the most part - in refit/refurb works.

I have to say your assistance is exceptional Corey. I thank you for taking the time to repsond to all my queries and struggles, but I have to say the issue still remains, and is something Autodesk needs to give solid consideration in their next build of the Revit Suite.

Many thanks.

[CoreyDaun]

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mmouvet wrote:

"I have done all you have suggested and it seems to me that Revit does not make any differentiation between detail lines (centre and hidden) and phase filter conditions applied to the elements in that phase. Thick lines as per phase filter overrides translates to think detail lines, centre and hidden..."

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That's exactly why you want the Phase Filter to be "By Category" for new elements, so that it does not apply the Phase Graphics Overrides to them. The image below has been drawn using the default Phase Graphics settings - the only thing I changed was to go to Object Styles, and change the Pipe Centerlines subcategory to a Line Weight of 1. The Line Styles of the MEP Hidden Lines and Center Lines for the Existing elements can easily be show as their true Line Patterns by going to the Phase Graphics Overrides and removing the Solid Line Pattern from "Existing". Can you tell me what is inadequate about this image?

*All of elements shown here are part of the same View .

Also, note that the Mechanical Template also has System Graphics Overrides and there may be View Filters that are also affecting the appearance of the elements in you Views.

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mmouvet wrote:

"...I have to say your assistance is exceptional Corey. I thank you for taking the time to repsond to all my queries and struggles, but I have to say the issue still remains, and is something Autodesk needs to give solid consideration in their next build of the Revit Suite.

Many thanks."

---

I appreciate that remark. My goal here is to help you achieve what you are aiming to accomplish and although my assistance may not be 'top-notch', I'm always happy to provide it.

[mmouvet]

I appreciate the effort that you have gone to, but I have to say the centrelines and hidden lines for the existing elements should be the same as the new. In the existing phase represented in your example, there is no differentiation between a pipework linetype and a centreline (on paper). In a complex plantroom, where there are many overlapping layers of pipework, there should be clarity. They are detail line types that shouldn't change between the phases. There should be no ambiguity - a centreline should show as centre line, no matter the phase, same as hidden. 

This is how our office has represented these two linetypes because we document designs that both contractor and client needs to interpret.

Again, many thanks for your assistance, but I see that our office standards are at odds with how Autodesk does things.

[CoreyDaun · Accepted solution]

I'll attempt once more with a single image and if you're still convinced that Revit cannot give you what you're looking for, I'll put this to rest.

[mmouvet]

OK, that is what I'm after !

I swear, Revit behaves like Black magic sometimes!

I apologise if I came across as a tad recalcitrant. I was certain that things just were not going my way.

Again, many thanks for your assitance, Corey. You are a very patient individual!

[HJMec]

Hi Corey,

Just a note to say thanks for this post. I know it's slightly outdated but it resolved my issues with the hidden lines. Much Appreciated.

[bradpark]

I know this thread is old but I'm having a very similar issue.

I've been through this thread numerous time and spent the better part of 3-4 hours trying to correct this. No matter what I do, all center lines and hidden lines are being displayed as solid lines and the same color as the pipe/duct. I haven't changed any of the phase filters and I believe they are all default. I've played with them some with no avail so I've set them back to the defaults. The center line style in Object Styles is set to gray, center line type and is still solid and color. The hidden line styles are set to gray and hidden line as well but appear solid and color. I can't for the life of me figure out why the lines won't turn gray and hidden or center line. 

What am I missing?

[CoreyDaun]

Regarding the elements (Pipe/Duct), what are their Phase and Phase Demolished values?

Regarding the view in question, what are its values for Phase and Phase Filter?

[bradpark]

So the pipe is on the "New Construction" Phase Created and "None" for Phase Demolished. 

The view is set to "Show Previous + New" and the Phase is "New Construction"

I greatly appreciate any ideas on this. I feel like this is a common issue but I've checked over and over all the common fixes.

[CoreyDaun]

No problem - I definitely understand how frustrating these things can be! In this case, it looks like the Phase Filter and relating setting are in order. My next suspicious would be that a View Filter (under Visibility/Graphic Overrides > Filters tab) is in effect in the View that is targeting the ducting/piping, which would override the center lines in the same way.

[bradpark]

I tried to override the display in VG but it didn't work so I've reverted back to it's default setting. See attached screenshot.

[CoreyDaun]

In that dialog, navigate to the "Filters" tab.

Some generic info on View Filters:

http://help.autodesk.com/view/RVT/2016/ENU/?guid=GUID-145815E2-5699-40FE-A358-FFC739DB7C46

[bradpark]

"No filters have been applied to this view. Click Add to apply one." Is all that is displayed there. I haven't set up any filters. 

[CoreyDaun]

OK, the next most likely culprit is Duct System Overrides and Piping System Overrides, each of which can be located in the Project Browser under Families. If you expand "Duct System", for example, you'll see a list of Duct Systems. If you double-click the system to which the delinquent Duct elements belong, you'll see a dialog, "Type Properties", in which you'll see "Graphic Overrides" - click on "Edit...". These settings, if set to anything but "<No Override>" will override the appearance of all elements of that system, including the center lines.