Revit MEP

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Employee
martin.schmid
Posts: 1,297
Registered: ‎11-16-2005
Message 11 of 41 (1,051 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

08-29-2012 11:33 PM in reply to: al.armiger

If the PLR provided conditional formatting, would this solve the problem (for you and the contractor?)



Martin Schmid, P.E.
Product Manager - Revit MEP
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Contributor
al.armiger
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎07-04-2012
Message 12 of 41 (1,047 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

08-29-2012 11:50 PM in reply to: martin.schmid

Martin,

 

The PLR can be exported to CSV and conditional reporting applied in excel.

 

If the conditonal reporting could be applied on generation to HTML or CSV it would be a work around but still requires the generation of a report whenever you want to check the data. I can give to someone without revit to verify, although I could do this with a schedule in 2012. There would need to be more functionality with fully editable report templates which we could build in the revit template. Simple fields only available currently.

 

A lot more work then I would like to commit to particularly as the 2012 solution just worked.

 

The data is obviously there as it is available in the PLR just not visible to the average Revit user.

 

Simple solution IMO is to display the data in the properties/schdules as  a readonly MaxFlow (MinFlow, Min/MaxFriction, Min/Max Velocity would be nice too.)

 

I'm sure there are plenty of other things we could do with the data in calculated fields if it was available to us.

 

Frustrated as always,

 

Al

Distinguished Mentor
asommer
Posts: 755
Registered: ‎08-10-2009
Message 13 of 41 (1,012 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-07-2012 04:22 PM in reply to: martin.schmid

Whoa... I just started my first Revit 2013 job, I didn't notice the "Multiple Values" for the flow in the duct... In 2012, you select a duct and then read the flow.  I don't need to tag it, I just need to select it and read the info on it.  What flow other than the connected flow is it reading?  There is really only one flow value that should be there.

 

Exporting a PLR doesn't quite go with the workflow we utilize.  Our engineers want to utilize the schedule and conditional formating as others did before,  Find the one that is highlited (by hitting "Show"), and fix it without having to look through an exported file broken into sections or inspecting a whole system for issues.

 

We had a great way to check our duct system.  What gives?  Can I get it back?

Employee
martin.schmid
Posts: 1,297
Registered: ‎11-16-2005
Message 14 of 41 (1,001 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-09-2012 11:27 PM in reply to: asommer

>> What flow other than the connected flow is it reading?  There is really only one flow value that should be there.

If there are taps, there are likely multiple flow values along the length of the duct... refer to the attached image.. what is the 'flow' in this case?

 

>>Find the one that is highlited (by hitting "Show"), and fix it without having to look through an exported file broken into sections or inspecting a whole system for issues.

Fix what?  



Martin Schmid, P.E.
Product Manager - Revit MEP
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Distinguished Mentor
asommer
Posts: 755
Registered: ‎08-10-2009
Message 15 of 41 (987 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 07:40 AM in reply to: martin.schmid

1.  We would "Tee" that main instead of "Tap".

2.  Where you show your "Flow Tag", it should say 500 CFM.

3.  It is not giving me a flow at all, it is saying "Multiple Values".

4.  In Conditional Formating in a "Duct Schedule", you can make it highlight if the Friction value is above what you require.  Same for Velocity.  From the schedule, I Right-Click the value that is highlighted, hit "Show", it takes me directly to the duct that has too much Friction or Velocity.  I would typically just make the duct larger.  I can normally read these same values in the properties dialog.  For some reason, our Engineers and Designers like this better than the "System Inspector".

 

Please see attached image.  I get a value for the individual runouts to diffusers (Top Tag), but not upstream.  The second from the top should have a flow of 200.  3rd should say 400, bottom should say 200.  Why would there be "Multiple Flow Values?

Employee
martin.schmid
Posts: 1,297
Registered: ‎11-16-2005
Message 16 of 41 (981 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 08:22 AM in reply to: asommer

The reason your case says multiple values can be discovered using a system color scheme... or, refer to the attached image. 

 

If I understand correctly, you are trying to find and fix is cases where the velocity or friction exceede some value. 

 

What do you think of the mechanism for finding Flex Ducts exceed the specified length?  I.e., in Mechanical Settings > Duct Settings > Conversion > Branch > Maximum Flex Duct Length... when you have flex duct that are too long, you can use the Warnings window to find them.



Martin Schmid, P.E.
Product Manager - Revit MEP
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Distinguished Mentor
asommer
Posts: 755
Registered: ‎08-10-2009
Message 17 of 41 (975 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 08:44 AM in reply to: martin.schmid

I see........................  We will have to find a different way.  What was the Reason for this change?  Did it improve something else?

 

If there was a "Warning" about over-pressure or over-velocity, that might be OK, however some systems are different than others.  In this case, the system Upstream of the Fan Terminal Units is a High Velocity, High Pressure System.  Downstream, the Pressure and Velocity are designed to be lower.  We also Size Return and Exhaust systems with different Friction And Velocity values than Supply.

Employee
martin.schmid
Posts: 1,297
Registered: ‎11-16-2005
Message 18 of 41 (968 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 08:54 AM in reply to: asommer

The reason for the change is that in 2012 the scenario in the attached image would have the pressure drop computed based on the entire duct length having a flow of 1500 CFM.  In 2013, the pressure drop is properly computed based on the allocation of 500 CFM and 1000 CFM in the sections as indicated.

 

This was a general problem from all duct/pipes with taps.



Martin Schmid, P.E.
Product Manager - Revit MEP
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Distinguished Mentor
asommer
Posts: 755
Registered: ‎08-10-2009
Message 19 of 41 (962 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 09:27 AM in reply to: martin.schmid

Ok, That makes sense.  Thanks for your replies, Martin.

Contributor
al.armiger
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎07-04-2012
Message 20 of 41 (947 Views)

Re: MEP 2013: Duct Flow = Multiple Values l/s

09-10-2012 04:31 PM in reply to: asommer

Ahh we love a good robust discussion.

 

I may be repeating myself but....

 

I understand the reason for the change but still feel that the parameters for MaxFlow should be available to the user as well. It is this figure that is used to calculate the duct size not the flow in a particular portion of a duct length. Think of exporting out to a separate sizing package or similar, this would now be defunct, the cynics would say deliberately but I am not so mean spirited.

 

A warning will still negate the use of schedules to verify the ductwork sizing.

 

As the parameter still exists againsts the connectors (it is used internally for the sizing calcs) it should be still possible for Autodesk to open this figure up to the user.

 

I think you will find that a number of groups will come out of the woodwork once this is realised, I can now personally count four.

 

I'm all for more robust software but Autodesk have to mindful that removing access to parameters/tools/etc. will break customisation out on the floor which has always been one of Revits strengths.

 

Regards,

 

Al

 

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