Autodesk MEP vs. Revit MEP

[dang.h]

Our company is thinking about moving towards Revit MEP, possibly Revit MEP Suite. Would this be a good idea since all projects are now leaning towards BIM? I want to know the differences between the two and how difficult of a transition it would be to go from Autodesk MEP to Revit MEP? Is Revit MEP capabilities so different that transitioning from Autodesk MEP will be difficult? Also, is Revit MEP different from Revit MEP Suite? I would like to know all this in order to better prepare myself and our company before transitioning to Revit MEP.

[Scott_Womack]

The though-process, as well as work flow between the two is considerably different.

Youo are also asking so broad a question as to be difficult to answer in a concise manner. There are also numberous other threads on this subject in this forum.

[dang.h]

What I want to know is, is Revit MEP really that different from Autodesk MEP? Some discussion say that it is totally different, like walking into an new environment that you have never seen before. Will the commands change? Will regular settings that Autodesk MEP have be so different in Revit MEP that we won't know that it exists?

[sec-k]

Yes, it is completely different. Honestly, I think it'd be easier for someone with no AutoCAD experience to learn Revit MEP. When I first started using it, I kept trying to use AutoCAD commands just out of habit. No lisp files, no customized menus, etc. I actual prefer the Revit work environment over AutoCAD now that I have been working in if for a year and a half.

-Jason
formerly "jayspot"

[i4edge]

Revit is a modeling program. ABS is a drafting program that wants to do modeling.

Revit has a different interface, ABS is just a bunch of routines overlayed on autocad with 3d content.

ABS is broken because of the approach, but at least the work arounds are possible. There is no future for ABS.

Revit is broken because it has been released before it was ready. Revit is the future.

Both take lots of time to get setup correctly and learn. If you are not using ABS already you might as well stick with what you have for another year or two and start getting familiar with Revit. You will then know when it is time to go to Revit.

Keep in mind that the focus of Revit is for Engineers and Designers not CAD operators. Also keep in mind CAD operators exist for Engineers and Designers not the other way around. CAD has been the bane of the AEC industry. It is a crutch that put too much focus on the drawing set instead of the design. CAD has caused the industry to create a convoluted design process to accommodate the limitations of CAD. It wastes time and is highly inefficient.

So when people approach Revit with the AEC mentality they don't get it or they get distracted because it can't create the same CD set that CAD does. I'm sure one day it will but that's not it's main purpose. If Autodesk had done it right they would have waited until they had sufficient content and had the design tools more robust. If this was the case then one could use revit from schematic design all the way thru CDs then export the drawings to Cad for touch ups.

The problem is Autodesk failed to make the solutions that revit provides complete. For example if you are going to use auto duct sizing and routing it had better work correctly 100% of the time for 80% of the situations encountered. Not 50% for 10% of the situations. If you are going to have equipment you place in drawings and connect they better be smart enough to have all the design data with them, not just some of it. If is going to have load calc ability it better be at least as good as what is available as stand alone packages and actually work.
With all this where is the schematic drawing section? Schematics are most basic form of models.
Autodesk should have just bought IES or Trace and HVAC Solutions and integrated that into their package.

I think one day they will include these things, but for now no.

[vewright]

Revit MEP is a joke.

There is barely enough content to illustrate how to create new families. And, believe me, that is what you will spend half your time doing.

The Family Editor is a cute little 3D modeler that would not bring $19.95 as a stand-alone product. But, you will get to know it well. In fact, it's probably good that it is simplistic, because you have to master it.

If you read the various posts, you will read that Revit is not really intended for the production of CDs--it's a program for Engineers and Designers. I don't understand that statement. Revit won't do what Engineers and Designers would want to do. Revit MEP won't size ductwork consistently. In my experience, it gives up more often than it succeeds, giving you error messages like, "can't move element." This on a layout that it has generated. It seems to do a little better with constant velocity sizing than it does with equal friction, but does not do a good job with either. The limit of Revit's duct sizing is an extended plenum with the air handler at one end.

You can't define new duct shapes--you are stuck with round and rectangular. Flat oval is not an option.

Plumbing is bad in AutoCAD MEP, and it's just about as bad in Revit MEP. Revit MEP will actually draw sloped pipe, but that's about it.

DRAWING vertical pipes an ducts is an ordeal. You can't draw in section views. You can draw in 3D views, but the results are unpredictable.

With AutoCAD, you can draw a vertical line, not only by changing the active plane, but by snapping to two points at different elevations, one directly above the other. Doesnt work with Revit MEP, at least not consistently.

However, in my opinion, production drafting is actually one of Revit's best acts. With ADT and ABS(MEP), you end up wth a lot of drawing files. Even with careful management of files and XREFs, it's easy to let inconsistencies creep into your drawings.

With Revit, everything is in one file, or can be. (You can still build your mechanical model over a linked archtectural model.) That means that you can plot anytime you want, without worrying about reloading XREFs, etc. Producing schedules is a snap.

My advice is to download the product and use it heavily in the demo mode for the 30-day trial period.

[Anonymous]

wrote in message news:5889357@discussion.autodesk.com...
You can't draw in section views.

Can now in Revit MEP 2009

[vewright]

Perhaps I was unfair.

You can draw ductwork in plan view, switch to an elevation view, rotate the ductwork in that plane so that it is vertical or inclined. Then you can use most of the editing tools, including drag handles. It's interesting that the trim tool will actually insert an elbow if you use it to fillet two duct runs.

I, for one, am anxiously awaiting the next release--shades of Detroit auto introductions.

[KyleB_Autodesk]

The Family Editor is a cute little 3D modeler that would not bring $19.95 as a stand-alone product. But, you will get to know it well. In fact, it's probably good that it is simplistic, because you have to master it.
****************************************************
I would argue that the Family Editor is not that simplistic, you can do most all solid modeling operations, short of the coveted "loft tool."

The folks at Broutek certainly have done some amazing things with Family Editor, check it out for yourself.
http://www.broutek.com/news/2008/02/26/presenting-the-zee/

Cheers,
Kyle B
Revit MEP Product Manager
http://inside-the-system.typepad.com/ Message was edited by: Kyle B [Autodesk]

[vewright]

What can I say? I am amazed and humbled.

However...their prices illustrate a point I have tried to make on several occasions. To buy a 500-family pack from Broutek costs $16,000. If you bought that same amount of content from them in ones and twos, it would cost about $50,000. This illustrates the economic impact of implementing Revit.

[dang.h]

Since it seems that it is a better fit for engineers. Is it possible for drafters to learn this program? Many times drafters are asked to help do the drafting and design for engineers. Would it make since for a drafter to learn Revit MEP? And if the drafter should learn to use Revit, how much MEP knowledge should he/she need to know in order to successfully implement Revit MEP?

[unjust]

and how much have you spent developing all of your customized ACAD content?

[sec-k]

I was just checking out the Broutek web site and the have some very detailed families. I have to question the need for such a level of detail on objects such as VAV boxes, rooftop air handlers, etc. In my conversations with the architects we work with on Revit projects, they aren't concerned about what our families look like as long as they represent the basic size and shape of the object. When they show their client renderings of their model (with ours linked in), they want the attention to be on their work, not the MEP objects. So yes, they look cool, but are they necessary? Just something to think about.

[vewright]

Good question!

I have only created a few families, as I needed them. For example, I have created a couple of families from the Hartzell fan catalog--just three series of fans. And, when I do create a family, I usually just create the types I think I will need in the near future.

To create a family for less than it costs to buy one, I say that you would have to be able to do so in 2 hours. I can create some simple odds and ends in less than an hour. But, a more complex model with many types might take me two days, or even two weeks.

Any way you look at it, adding content is expensive.

[Anonymous]

That's a loaded question; for most you can roll that into the project
budget. Call the manuf get their selections and make a block out of
them. Granted the process got a whole lot slower with ABS/MEP but you
could always fake it with a 2d block if need be in ABS/MEP.

The point was that there is very little to build upon or use as a
starter to these families we need to create with Revit. Heck, im still
confused as to what family type to start with most times when i need to
create a new family.


[ http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html ]


metis wrote:
> and how much have you spent developing all of your customized ACAD content?

[msoren]

though MEP is designed around the design process and the engineering it really depends on your company as to your first question. in our firm the CAD Operators are in charge of all drawing standards and therefore have been put in charge of learning the program and creating our office Revit standards then teaching it to the designers and engineers. As for how much MEP knowledge is needed that also depends on your intent. Overall I think that a basic knowledge of design is enough to get you started, we have many in our office who have never worked in this industry, with them it takes a little longer to grasp it, It really depends on your Office and how the work flow fits best.

Hope that helps

[dang.h]

Would you say that it would be good for the CAD operators and company to move towards Revit? The reason being that everything is going towards 3D/BIM. Also, how beneficial or successful is Revit when implementing into BIM? A lot of projects that I've seen implemented into projects that are 3D are mainly blocks.

[msoren]

Revit is the future so moving towards it would be yes. The biggest problem is most Architects that have been using Revit Arch really want full blown Revit MEP Models now, which isn't always the easiest thing to accomplish. Revit is nothing like ACAD and will take time and money to learn. Your best bet is to get one license and one good machine and one person take control of learning and creating procedures for your office for Revit. Then teach others. If your company can handle the cost and have the availability of professional training that's a good place to start also.

Revit has many design features which is why you can't think about this as ACAD, it functions very differently. The benefit of Revit is that when family internals are created correctly (and that doesn't mean that they will have every nut and bolt located) they will have within the family many components that are needed for analysis. Allowing for scheduling, system analysis at any point along the system, flow rates, pressure drops, voltage. Making them more than just a 3D placeholder.

[dang.h]

Thanks for the information. My company is thinking about going that route, its just that we are unsure of how to go about it and don't really know how much investment and time is needed. Again, thank you for your inputs, this gives me a better idea of what I should do and how our company can move forward.

[rwduffy]

I read these, and the first thing that comes to mind about any software is, you will always have those who like it and those who do not. It has taken Autodesk 25+ years to get AutoCAD where it is today, constantly improving the product for use. With Revit, it has been around for less then half of that time. CD's are changing daily and packages are getting larger with information to help reduce RFI's. No matter what program you use, you have to master it ONE STEP AT A TIME.

Sure our first project may not have been as profitable, but I can honestly say that the projects we are working on now are. Want to know our secret? We do not waste time on what product is better. Our first project was morphed with both CAD and Revit drawings.

It does take time to understand how to create families but there are so many resources out there and many many more companies are creating content for us to download. Even if we put this on Autodesk, someone will complain about how the generic model was not built correctly. There millions upon millions of families that could be created. How many do you use?

Revit is not all there but you can figure out a work around to get what you need to produce CD's. I know when Revit does come out year after year and the software has improved, we will be way ahead of the game.